For your review

Am redesigning the orchestra website to use PHP and be a little more
interesting design-wise.

The temporary location is http://www.opro.org/XXXnew%20redesign/index.php
- I've put XXX in to not let the test directory be spidered, so remove
that when you visit.

Not all links currently work, and there's tewaking here and there to do.
Any comments welcome.

Neal wrote:

Am redesigning the orchestra website to use PHP and be a little more
interesting design-wise.

The temporary location is
http://www.opro.org/XXXnew%20redesign/index.php - I've put XXX in to not
let the test directory be spidered, so remove that when you visit.

I think the first two design-issues that strike me are:
1. the cut-out photograph; and
2. the colour scheme.

1. the cut-out photograph

Both the image quality and the cut-outline leave much to be desired. IMO
this badly needs a replacement, take a new one if you can't find
anything suitable in the archives.

2. the colour scheme.

It just doesn't work. The strong blue clashes with the warm tones of the
curtains in the photograph and the dull sandy background to the main
content. Furthermore, the dull sandy background is just /too/ dull.

Try brightening the background, keeping the hue but increasing
saturation and mostly lightness. Instead of the strong blue, try
something around the green tones with med-low saturation, and
mid-brightness.

PS. Just a thought but have you considered putting the calender below
the menu? Having the menu to the left and the calender to the right
leads to the eye jumping between the two with the content sitting rather
uncomfortably in the middle.

Hth,
--
Ben M.

Neal <neal413 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote:

Am redesigning the orchestra website to use PHP and be a little more
interesting design-wise.

The temporary location is http://www.opro.org/XXXnew%20redesign/index.php
- I've put XXX in to not let the test directory be spidered, so remove
that when you visit.

Not all links currently work, and there's tewaking here and there to do.
Any comments welcome.

Comment on html only (no link to stylesheet provided).

&nbsp;
Yuck
div class="clear">&nbsp;</div
Yuck²
Members&nbsp;Section
To control freakish, css white-space would have sufficed here.

I don't see any need for the "related links" section, at least it should
be positioned differently in the source, currently it precedes the
content which makes little sense.

h2>Welcome!</h2
Incorrect header usage, doesn't describe what follows.
a href="prog.php" title="Past Programs">past concert programs</a
Incorrect use of title attribute, same for most other links.

Skip/jump to Jake'ism link nonsense.
The presence/purpose of the "Western Mass Web Guide" button is a
mystery. I've no idea what to expect when following the link.
2 identical "Great Stories" links.
Images are to pixilated.
The top orchestra image fades to blue don't look good, and also fading
the left and right edge to blue would look better.
Imo there are 3 content sections on the index page: content, calendar,
and site nav, all should be headed by a h2, currently there are more
than 3 h2's used.

--
Spartanicus

Thanks for the comments Ben.

On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 23:58:34 GMT, Ben Measures
<saint_abroadremove (AT) removehotmail (DOT) com> wrote:

1. the cut-out photograph

Both the image quality and the cut-outline leave much to be desired. IMO
this badly needs a replacement, take a new one if you can't find
anything suitable in the archives.

Yes, this is a dummy. I did it in Paint. I'm going to get someone with a
bit more experience with graphics to do the real deal.

2. the colour scheme.

It just doesn't work. The strong blue clashes with the warm tones of the
curtains in the photograph and the dull sandy background to the main
content. Furthermore, the dull sandy background is just /too/ dull.

Try brightening the background, keeping the hue but increasing
saturation and mostly lightness. Instead of the strong blue, try
something around the green tones with med-low saturation, and
mid-brightness.

So... with an olivey-green where the blue is, and the main background
lighter, you think it'd be good?

PS. Just a thought but have you considered putting the calender below
the menu? Having the menu to the left and the calender to the right
leads to the eye jumping between the two with the content sitting rather
uncomfortably in the middle.

Hmm, the one page I have an extra column is the index page, and we really
want that calendar above the fold to attract attention, that's the
bread-and-butter after all. You think with a lighter bg for the main
content that would mitigate the issue?

Thanks, Spartanicus.

On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 01:35:05 +0100, Spartanicus <me (AT) privacy (DOT) net> wrote:

Comment on html only (no link to stylesheet provided).

Yes, I realized after I left home I forgot that. It's at
/new%20redesign/imported.css if anyone cares to view it.

&nbsp;
Yuck
div class="clear">&nbsp;</div
Yuck²

I knew I was mucking it on those. But I'm not sure I understand exactly
what your objection is, it could be a number of things.

The latter is present to make sure the div with the lower border has real
content below the floats.

Members&nbsp;Section
To control freakish, css white-space would have sufficed here.

Well, my thinking was to minimize wrapping confusion in a no-CSS
environment, but upon re-thinking, it makes sense to not worry about it,
as it'll turn out as a bulleted list anyhow. I'll try your suggestion.

I don't see any need for the "related links" section, at least it should
be positioned differently in the source, currently it precedes the
content which makes little sense.

Where would be better, in your opinion? This could solve the issue with
the <div>&nbsp;</div> after the local nav, if I can find a better spot. I
don't want a branching "drop-down"-type menu, for sure. I kinda thought
across the top was the most logical place for local navigation.

h2>Welcome!</h2
Incorrect header usage, doesn't describe what follows.

Dammit!

a href="prog.php" title="Past Programs">past concert programs</a
Incorrect use of title attribute, same for most other links.

Agreed, but would you say the titles in the main navigation are OK?

Skip/jump to Jake'ism link nonsense.

Frankly I'm not sure either way. I'll allow the majority to rule on this.

The presence/purpose of the "Western Mass Web Guide" button is a
mystery. I've no idea what to expect when following the link.

This is a recipricol for a listing in a local guide. Perhaps explanatory
text is warranted.

2 identical "Great Stories" links.

Yes, two separate concerts. It is redundant, though. I'll see what I can
figure out.

Images are to pixilated.

See my reply to Ben - I agree, these are dummies.

The top orchestra image fades to blue don't look good, and also fading
the left and right edge to blue would look better.

Well, might move from the blue, as Ben isn't the first to not like the
#000080 blue. Sadly, I kinda like it.

Imo there are 3 content sections on the index page: content, calendar,
and site nav, all should be headed by a h2, currently there are more
than 3 h2's used.

Wondering how I can logically lay it out. Perhaps the second main content
section should be a H3, with better text for the H2 of the main content?

On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 22:34:21 -0500, kchayka <usenet (AT) c-net (DOT) us> wrote:

Neal wrote:

The temporary location is
http://www.opro.org/XXXnew%20redesign/index.php
- I've put XXX in to not let the test directory be spidered,

I suggest using robots.txt instead:

User-agent: *
Disallow: /new%20redesign/

Well, two things.

1) This directory will last only a few months.

2) I've found that when you're using PHP the .htaccess isn't referred to
for charset, wasn't sure of how successful such a disallow would work. I
figured this was simple enough for the purposes here.

If anyone can verify that setting robots will for sure work, I'll do it
and post a real URL.

Neal <neal413 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote:

&nbsp;
Yuck
div class="clear">&nbsp;</div
Yuck²

I knew I was mucking it on those. But I'm not sure I understand exactly
what your objection is, it could be a number of things.

There are very few cases where the use of &nbps;'s is justified. First
case: use css margin/padding, second case clearing floats should be done
on the next block element. No need to inject bogus markup.

The latter is present to make sure the div with the lower border has real
content below the floats.

Eh?

I don't see any need for the "related links" section, at least it should
be positioned differently in the source, currently it precedes the
content which makes little sense.

Where would be better, in your opinion?

First ask yourself why you think you need it (you don't imo). The most
logical place for it would be after the page's content. The reader has
finished reading the content, then you inform him: and here are some
related pages you might also be interested in. This type of referral to
other sub pages can be useful, but not on an index page like in your
case.

Your navbar on the left (assuming it's repeated on sub pages) already
conveys to the user that the page they are reading is part of a larger
site if they enter via a sub page.

This could solve the issue with
the <div>&nbsp;</div> after the local nav, if I can find a better spot. I
don't want a branching "drop-down"-type menu, for sure. I kinda thought
across the top was the most logical place for local navigation.

Content first.

h2>Welcome!</h2
Incorrect header usage, doesn't describe what follows.

Dammit!

Including "Welcome" is generally a bit creepy crawly imo.

a href="prog.php" title="Past Programs">past concert programs</a
Incorrect use of title attribute, same for most other links.

Agreed, but would you say the titles in the main navigation are OK?

They can be useful on for example a navbar using one word links: <a
href="downloads.htm" title="Owner's Manual, Screensavers,
Utilities">Downloads</a>. Repeating the linked text in the title content
as you've done is worse than pointless.

Skip/jump to Jake'ism link nonsense.

Frankly I'm not sure either way. I'll allow the majority to rule on this.

The presence/purpose of the "Western Mass Web Guide" button is a
mystery. I've no idea what to expect when following the link.

This is a recipricol for a listing in a local guide. Perhaps explanatory
text is warranted.

2 identical "Great Stories" links.

Yes, two separate concerts.

Same link text, same link target.

Well, might move from the blue, as Ben isn't the first to not like the
#000080 blue. Sadly, I kinda like it.

I agree with Ben, it could be better.

Imo there are 3 content sections on the index page: content, calendar,
and site nav, all should be headed by a h2, currently there are more
than 3 h2's used.

Wondering how I can logically lay it out. Perhaps the second main content
section should be a H3, with better text for the H2 of the main content?

On reflection you probably only have 2 content sections on the index
page, the calendar belongs under the page content header.

--
Spartanicus

On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 18:31:54 -0500, kchayka <usenet (AT) c-net (DOT) us> wrote:

Neal wrote:
On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 22:34:21 -0500, kchayka <usenet (AT) c-net (DOT) us> wrote:

Neal wrote:

The temporary location is
http://www.opro.org/XXXnew%20redesign/index.php
- I've put XXX in to not let the test directory be spidered,

I suggest using robots.txt instead:

User-agent: *
Disallow: /new%20redesign/

2) I've found that when you're using PHP the .htaccess isn't referred to
for charset, wasn't sure of how successful such a disallow would work.

.htaccess isn't involved at all here, just robots.txt.

Well, if .htaccess isn't referenced, I wondered about robots. Oh well. Not
like I made it difficult, really...

On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 09:48:21 +0100, Spartanicus <me (AT) privacy (DOT) net> wrote:

div class="clear">&nbsp;</div
Yuck²

I knew I was mucking it on those. But I'm not sure I understand exactly
what your objection is, it could be a number of things.

There are very few cases where the use of &nbps;'s is justified. First
case: use css margin/padding, second case clearing floats should be done
on the next block element. No need to inject bogus markup.

The latter is present to make sure the div with the lower border has real
content below the floats.

Eh?

My guess is that he's encountered an IE bug. I have an otherwise
spurious &nbsp; below a float on my pages because it was the only way I
could get IE to behave.

--
Stephen Poley

http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/

Stephen Poley <sbpoleySpicedHamTrap (AT) xs4all (DOT) nl> wrote:

The latter is present to make sure the div with the lower border has real
content below the floats.

Eh?

My guess is that he's encountered an IE bug. I have an otherwise
spurious &nbsp; below a float on my pages because it was the only way I
could get IE to behave.

If you are referring to http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/
then that page is in dire need of a code overhaul.

Removing the spurious element causes the same effect in Opera and
Firefox and is simply the result of floats being removed from the flow.

--
Spartanicus