Update to 'Critique of work in progress'

We mere
mortals should be bowing to his greatness, I'm sure.
You "mere mortals" coming to the mark-up NG are not interested in discuss

design. But the original poster cross-posted the message, creating confusion
about what were the opinions about.

The person that originally posted asked about his new, repulsively badly
designed site which is SELLING PROFESSIONALLY DESIGNED WEBSITES. Which makes
him/her/it what we call a "Hack". An impostor trying to sell the knowledge
he doesn't have. Basically, a con artist.

With the Internet bubble came up, lot of hacks suddenly got work. Everybody
with a bootlegged copy of FrontPage was a "Web Designer", and everybody with
a bootlegged copy of Photoshop was a "Graphic designer". Some of them even
got rich!

But when the bubble bust, the damage this hacks did to companies, start-ups
and small business was devastating. If you ask me, all those people would be
rotting in jail. Taking money, lots of it, from the unaware, giving nothing
or even damaging other peoples businesses should be a crime. In certain
cases, it IS. Unfortunatly, there's no legislation against hacks, I'm
afraid.

Coming back to us, the hack wants to knows if he can get away selling the
knowledge he obviously doesn't have. And, as he/she/it's absolutely clueless
about design, what it means and what it does, ask the pros. Incidentally, he
cross-post to a coder NG. More proof of absolute and complete cluelessness.

So, I give my opinion.

So come another design clueless guy, probably from the mark-up NG, demanding
to have explained the obvious. So, in my book, that's a hack trying to cover
another hack's ass, and that did it.

If somebody wants to know about professional commercial design, go to the
library, go to the university, or buy the right books and self-study the
topic. Then, with at least SOME knowledge, can ask the pros about his/her
work. But NEVER EVER ask a pro about making a business stealing from the
unaware.

Presenting a business based on the ignorance of the people, is bad faith in
my book. And deserves to fail. Miserably. It shouldn't even take off, as
somebody has to get rip-off to the business to start.

So, you coders, here you have it. Explained in the simplest words I could
find, being english my fifth language.

Hope to have cleared up your doubts.

It's not surprising something like this happens with a crosspost to
alt.html.critique and alt.design.graphics. Oil...water...
I couldn't agree more.

Anyway, both coders and web designers should coexist in a symbiotic
relation, as, at least in theory, one depends on the other.

Maybe one doesn't wanna (or is not able to) recognize the importance of the
other?

Using a friend's computer,
---
Pepe
Milano, Italy

[cut]

Neal, I'm sorry if you have reading/comprehension problems. However, those
problems existed BEFORE I've made my post.

My job is not to teach the impaired. Never have, never will. I don't have
the skills to do that, I leave it to the pros.

My only word of advice is: read the thread again. And read my other post to
kchayka. Maybe that would clear up things for you.

If after doing that you keep your position, my word of advice to Jake it'll
be valuable to you too: whine to someone that actually cares!

Using a friend's computer,

---
Pepe
Milano, Italy

In message <2i4eeqFj3klgU1 (AT) uni-berlin (DOT) de>, Giuseppe Carmine De Blasio
<gcdbTOGLIMI (AT) email (DOT) it> writes

You're going to have to do better than that if you want to be taken
seriously.
Says who? You? Who are you? Do you represent some association or something?
I didn't see any credentials presented... because threre are none!

Let's put some things into place here:
I gave my opinion to the actual person that happens to have asked for.
The post was NOT directed to you.
Anyway, coming out from nowhere, you hijack the thread and demand to have
explained the obvious.

Sorry, pal; it just doesn't work that way. Why should I care about you and
what you may think or not? You're not even relevant to the thread. You're
just binary noise...

Tell me what coders do, Pepe.
I'm not your teacher, Jake. Use Google. If you don't know how to use a
search engine, don't ask me to teach you; I don't teach for free...

Maybe now is all a little bit more clear for you, Jake. If it isn't, don't
even bother to tell me; whine to somebody else that might care.

Now that I think of, you don't even pass the "Troll 101" test...

:-)

re:.http://smallwww.net/test2/index.htm

Hmmm ... how to write a lot and say nothing.

Until you wish to give us the benefit of your wisdom regarding your
original comments:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
".... The person that put together this site is clearly NOT a designer;
however, this small detail does not stop him in offering web design to
others for a fee.

This is a venture that's destined to fail.

You've been warned. ..."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

then, my friend, I guess we'll just have to regard you as the phoney (or
troll) you seem to be.

Bye.

--
Jake

In message <Xns94FBD848B13FBdoormouseattnet (AT) 68 (DOT) 12.19.6>, The Doormouse
<doormouse (AT) att (DOT) net> writes

Neal <neal413 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote:

No one asked for a fucking lesson, Mister Ego. He asked why you think
it's bad design

A correction - he commanded a lesson.
"Explain yourself" is an imperative (and rude).

It was actually said in a very nice, pleasant tone of voice -- ask

anyone who heard me say it ..... ;-)

Jake is not the Supreme Leader of Usenet
(last time I checked ... must remember to ask the other mice ...)

....... and they said?

So Jake got the lesson that he asked to receive, although it was not the
one that he wanted.
You too, are delivering a lesson. Is it the lesson
that you intended? Probably it is not.

That's very ............. enigmatic. Something to ponder, I think.

By the way, I just soaked up some piss from a minor prick at my work ...
hmmm, time to flame ALL OF YOU ... =D

Give it your best shot ;-)

The Doormouse

regards.

--
Jake

Hmmm ... how to write a lot and say nothing.
That's your opinion. Anybody is entitled to have one.

Until you wish to give us
Who's "us", Jake? Again you put yourself as the representant of some kind of

institution... what is it all about, Jake?

As far as I'm concerned, based from the way you present yourself, you're a
multiple-personality schizofrenic.

the benefit of your wisdom regarding your original comments:
What can you use my "wisdom" for, Jack?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
".... The person that put together this site is clearly NOT a designer;
however, this small detail does not stop him in offering web design to
others for a fee.
If you need it explained in words I hope you'll be able to comprehend, here

it goes:

"Geez... another clueless, con artist wannabe, worthless hack trying to prey
the unaware. I'm starting to get pissed off. I hope that they get what they
deserve, which is to miserably fail every shady venture they entreprise"

These words are based on the very business he's trying to promote, TO SELL
"PROFESSIONALLY DESIGNED WEBSITES".

For more details, read the my post as Marco Dalla Vecchia to kchayka.

Are you satisfied now, Jake? Did I make myself clear enough to your
standards? I mean, and for all your other personalities' as well... ?

then, my friend, I guess we'll
Again? Who the Hell are "we", Jake? Can I have some names of the ones you

represent? I mean, out of sheer curiosity... Do you cross-dress as well?

just have to regard you as the phoney (or troll) you seem to be.
I stand up for the words I say, Jake. And those stay.

Anyway, why would you care in defending that hack? What is in for you? Is
him one of you personalities? Or is it you in desguise, Jake?

Hmm...maybe I know now from who Stephen King got the inspiration for the
screenplay "Secret Window".

:-)

--
Pepe
Milano, Italy
PS: seems that you forgot to take your medication... bad, bad boy! Erm...
boys? Girls? Pets? Whatever...! :-)

On Wed, 2 Jun 2004 10:53:29 +0200, Marco Dalla Vecchia
<marco.dallavecchiaZ (AT) spazioquaglia (DOT) it> wrote:

You "mere mortals" coming to the mark-up NG are not interested in discuss
design.

This I disagree with. While I don't speak the language of design, it is
not a subject I'm disinclined to discuss.

I posted some time ago on my thoughts on why the design in question was
poor. I'd love feedback on whether I'm on or off the mark. I think I've
indicated a willingness to engage in a dialogue.

But the original poster cross-posted the message, creating confusion
about what were the opinions about.

And later,

Anyway, both coders and web designers should coexist in a symbiotic
relation, as, at least in theory, one depends on the other.

Perhaps this is precisely why it was cross-posted as it was?

If somebody wants to know about professional commercial design, go to the
library, go to the university, or buy the right books and self-study the
topic. Then, with at least SOME knowledge, can ask the pros about his/her
work. But NEVER EVER ask a pro about making a business stealing from the
unaware.

Perhaps you can recommend some resources you have found valuable in your
formative time?

While I'm not necessarily a graphic designer, I am an artist, and am
concerned with the appearance of my work. Again, I'd love an appropriate
(you decide what that is) response to the thoughts I posted earlier.

Presenting a business based on the ignorance of the people, is bad faith
in
my book. And deserves to fail. Miserably. It shouldn't even take off, as
somebody has to get rip-off to the business to start.

Agreed. All I would like is some insight into what makes it ignorant, and
whether my thoughts are on the right track.

Maybe one doesn't wanna (or is not able to) recognize the importance of
the
other?

Oh, most people feel they're over-important at least some of the time.
Present company included. Apologies that my last reply was a bit more
cutting than warranted.

jake <jake (AT) gododdin (DOT) demon.co.uk> wrote:

Jake is not the Supreme Leader of Usenet
(last time I checked ... must remember to ask the other mice ...)

...... and they said?

They told me to have a cookie and watch television.
Who is in charge is not that important.

hmmm, time to flame ALL OF YOU ... =D

Give it your best shot ;-)

I will set my minions on you ... they will gnaw on your ankles!

=D

The Doormouse

--
The Doormouse cannot be reached by e-mail without her permission.

"Marco Dalla Vecchia" <marco.dallavecchiaZ (AT) spazioquaglia (DOT) it> wrote:

Using a friend's computer,

Uh oh - yours went down?

The Doormouse

--
The Doormouse cannot be reached by e-mail without her permission.

Neal <neal413 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote:

While I don't speak the language of design, it
is not a subject I'm disinclined to discuss.

This site is at such a level that discussion is fairly pointless. Using a
simile of cooks and designers, most cooks will not spend twenty minutes
debating the finer points of peanut-butter-and-jelly sandwiches. The
original poster is designing at that level - and just discovered
bannanas! Oh joy!

PB&J website design - now featuring banannas.
MMMmmmm ... good. But is he a chef?

What if he walked into a convention of cooks (that's what we are) and
started promoting the sale of his new book of recipes? I believe that the
title might be "Two great recipes for PB&J". He just wafted a fresh
sandwich under Pepe's nose ... uh oh, looks like a mistake ...

Jake will be a good designer someday, if only he will practice and read
up on the topic. He is not ready yet. I guess his first lesson would be
to take advice more to heart and get down to the bookstore.

I posted some time ago on my thoughts on why the design in question
was poor. I'd love feedback on whether I'm on or off the mark. I think
I've indicated a willingness to engage in a dialogue.

The great dialogue about PB&J will have to wait until you both have read
up on the topic a little more. An hour curled up in a comfy chair with a
book on design basics should inspire both of you.

Perhaps you can recommend some resources you have found valuable in
your formative time?

I did.

While I'm not necessarily a graphic designer, I am an artist, and am
concerned with the appearance of my work. Again, I'd love an
appropriate (you decide what that is) response to the thoughts I
posted earlier.

Try that book which I mentioned!

Agreed. All I would like is some insight into what makes it ignorant,
and whether my thoughts are on the right track.

Try that book which I mentioned!

The Doormouse

--
The Doormouse cannot be reached by e-mail without her permission.

In message <Xns94FC575058D77doormouseattnet (AT) 68 (DOT) 12.19.6>, The Doormouse
<doormouse (AT) att (DOT) net> writes

Neal <neal413 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote:

While I don't speak the language of design, it
is not a subject I'm disinclined to discuss.

This site is at such a level that discussion is fairly pointless.

You're not another 'grafick dee-zy-ner' are you?

Using a
simile of cooks and designers, most cooks will not spend twenty minutes
debating the finer points of peanut-butter-and-jelly sandwiches. The
original poster is designing at that level - and just discovered
bannanas! Oh joy!

PB&J website design - now featuring banannas.
MMMmmmm ... good. But is he a chef?

What if he walked into a convention of cooks (that's what we are) and
started promoting the sale of his new book of recipes? I believe that the
title might be "Two great recipes for PB&J". He just wafted a fresh
sandwich under Pepe's nose ... uh oh, looks like a mistake ...


Jake will be a good designer someday, if only he will practice and read
up on the topic.

I wasn't aware that you knew me that well ....

He is not ready yet.

Oh dear ......... <goes off into the corner and sulks.....>

I guess his first lesson would be
to take advice more to heart and get down to the bookstore.


I posted some time ago on my thoughts on why the design in question
was poor. I'd love feedback on whether I'm on or off the mark. I think
I've indicated a willingness to engage in a dialogue.

The great dialogue about PB&J will have to wait until you both have read
up on the topic a little more. An hour curled up in a comfy chair with a
book on design basics should inspire both of you.

Yes. You are ...... aren't you ...... a genuine 'grafick dee-zy-ner'.

Perhaps you can recommend some resources you have found valuable in
your formative time?

I did.

While I'm not necessarily a graphic designer, I am an artist, and am
concerned with the appearance of my work. Again, I'd love an
appropriate (you decide what that is) response to the thoughts I
posted earlier.

Try that book which I mentioned!

Agreed. All I would like is some insight into what makes it ignorant,
and whether my thoughts are on the right track.

Try that book which I mentioned!

I guess that, in time, you will come to realise that designing a Web

site involves a lot more than just producing a page with a few pretty
pictures ;-)

(One of the most useful options that the browser designers ever put into
their product was 'turn off graphic images'.)

The Doormouse

Regards.

--
Jake