HOW competition

"e n | c k m a" <bob (AT) marley (DOT) com> wrote

In any event, I wish you no malice, but if you made usability and
accessibility pre-requisites for entry to your design competition then
you
would gain a shed load of support in this and other forums.

It'd also make the competition a lot harder (a good thing).
I'd really love to see a competition do that - it'd make things very
interesting and it's a very different idea. Perhaps W3C should host such
a
competition.

You are onto something here!

Absolutely, W3C should (and could) begin a competition for (pages) using the
standard HTML and CSS <i>and</i> the elements of design.

(What? not flash centric, no frames, not JavaScript dependant, and
accessibility compliant)

What an opportunity!

But, Oh, Well... </opportunity>

Absolutely, W3C should (and could) begin a competition for (pages) using
the
standard HTML and CSS <i>and</i> the elements of design.

Maybe the Web Standards Projects (url:www.webstandards.org) would be a
better place for the competition if the w3c aren't "into that kind of thing"

"e n | c k m a" <bob (AT) marley (DOT) com> wrote

Absolutely, W3C should (and could) begin a competition for (pages) using
the
standard HTML and CSS <i>and</i> the elements of design.

Maybe the Web Standards Projects (url:www.webstandards.org) would be a
better place for the competition if the w3c aren't "into that kind of
thing"

I've only seen a couple of these "design" thingies... perhaps because I'm
not interested and not paying attention. But the ones I do remember seeing,
it seemed to me, had their own ax to grind, their own product or philosophy
to peddle, and I would not be surprised if the winners were, um, kind of,
obvious...
So, a contest or competition which included good current coding/
accessibility <i>without</i> pushing a product could benefit the community
as a whole.

Taking your idea to W3C or webstandards seems to me to be a good idea.

Glenn
--

Some man may think for me, but it is better for me to think for myself.
Henry David Thoreau

From: "William Tasso" <news27 (AT) tbdata (DOT) com
Organization: <a href=" http://www.WilliamTasso.com/"> William Tasso </a
Reply-To: "William Tasso" <news27 (AT) tbdata (DOT) com
Newsgroups: alt.html.critique
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 01:57:52 -0000
Subject: Re: HOW competition

accessibility pre-requisites for entry to your design competition

It's not my contest!!! I only wish I owned HOW magazine. If
I did own a magazine who's subject matter were design,
then I figure any competition I had would probably be based
on... um, design?

I doubt seriously that they are worried in the least about
gaining the support of this little group. They have the
attention of their market share quite well in hand, along
with I.D. and Print magazines. I think they'll continue to
do just fine. The good thin is that those entrants who
make the list will be benefited as I've been told by more
than one professional designer that inclusion in one of
these publications has not only earned them respect (or
envy) by their peers, but has also brought them business...
the bottom line.

geez! It was just a heads up for those who might be interested...
not a challenge to anyone's way of life!

Unfortunately for me, I have to exclude myself from such considerations
being completely 'design' challenged.

Well, I'm not completely design challenged, but in the
case of web development I am. I usually acid test in
NS 4.79, so lots of the CSS sites (that supposed
grant us the ability to design) just turn into plain text
sites or, probably in combination with DHTML, simply
disappear.
I can't "design" around the standards. I really think the
standard setters would be very happy if the web would go
back to just sharing text and mathematical information
and the world of commercial world would leave them alone
in peace. Otherwise I would think they would come up
with a way of coding that actually allowed for the easy
incorporation of design.
As for me though, I don't need everyone to be able to see
my site, if I ever really get it built. Even at that, I feel
like I should put up atleast 3 versions... 1) the way I
want it, 2) allowing for the way the viewer wants it,
and then 3) in plain unadulterated text.

I only wish I knew Flash, but I don't like going to a site
and not being given a choice either because they only
did a Flash version, or it sensed my plugin and forced
me into Flash. That annoys even me.

I don't have a problem with anyone who chooses to stick
to standards and accessibility. But I do find design relevant
in the world of commerce and communications, online or off.
Why should everything have to be their way or the highway?

From: "gmcclary" <gmcclary (AT) hotmail (DOT) com
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
Newsgroups: alt.html.critique
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 08:53:31 -0800
Subject: Re: HOW competition

But the ones I do remember seeing,
it seemed to me, had their own ax to grind, their own product or philosophy

Seems to me that's whats happening here.

I thought an HTML group would be about supporting each other
in working with code and not require that everyone feel the same
way about it's application.

My mistake.

From: "e n | c k m a" <bob (AT) marley (DOT) com
Organization: BigPond Internet Services
Newsgroups: alt.html.critique
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 2003 09:16:18 GMT
Subject: Re: HOW competition

Absolutely, W3C should (and could) begin a competition for (pages) using
the
standard HTML and CSS <i>and</i> the elements of design.

Maybe the Web Standards Projects (url:www.webstandards.org) would be a
better place for the competition if the w3c aren't "into that kind of thing"


I think either would be a great idea, but I doubt if there's

any interest. They'd have to outsource the judging on the
design portion of the competition. And to make it worth
anyone's while they'd have to find some publisher or other
outlet to mention the contest and the winners where
business and corporate buyer would see it.

doubtful. maybe just a coding shoot off would do, just for
fun.

iehsmith <inezhsmithspammenot (AT) earthlink (DOT) net> wrote in
news:BBC98A9B.BAC2%inezhsmithspammenot (AT) earthlink (DOT) net:

From: "William Tasso" <news27 (AT) tbdata (DOT) com
Organization: <a href=" http://www.WilliamTasso.com/"> William Tasso
/a> Reply-To: "William Tasso" <news27 (AT) tbdata (DOT) com
Newsgroups: alt.html.critique
Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 01:57:52 -0000
Subject: Re: HOW competition

accessibility pre-requisites for entry to your design competition

It's not my contest!!! I only wish I owned HOW magazine. If
I did own a magazine who's subject matter were design,
then I figure any competition I had would probably be based
on... um, design?

Nobody in this thread was disagreeing with that. They were saying that the
winning entries in an ideal competition would provide a real-life
demonstration of "Usable. Accessible. Visually exciting. Pick any
*three*." Something a lot of people, and you write as if you're one of
them, seem unable or unwilling to believe is possible.

I can't "design" around the standards. I really think the
standard setters would be very happy if the web would go
back to just sharing text and mathematical information
and the world of commercial world would leave them alone
in peace. Otherwise I would think they would come up
with a way of coding that actually allowed for the easy
incorporation of design.

I think what you're wishing they had done was come up with a way of coding
that would make *Web* design work the same way as *print* design. The
reason they didn't do that is that it would be impossible; there are too
many fundamental differences between the Web and print for it to be
possible. Web design just has to be done differently from print design,
just as set or costume design for a TV show has to be done somewhat
differently from set or costume design for a stage play.

Good design always works with, rather than fights, the inherent
characteristics of the medium. What works visually best in a pen-and-ink
drawing is going to differ from what works visually best in an oil
painting, and good design in either medium is going to be quite different
from good design in an artistic photo. The mark of a poor designer is that
his designs in one medium look like an imitation of a different medium
rather than something original. And that's exactly how Web designs that
are based on delusions of placing fixed-size pixels on a fixed-size canvas
come across. A good Web design delivers its visual message under a wide
variety of conditions, not just under perfect conditions. Bad Web designs
are like spoiled children: they go to pieces if they can't get their way.

NO, all I'm saying is why does everything HAVE meet your
standards and HAVE be accessible to everyone? Why are these
the only rules to live by. Am I not allowed to use HTML any
way I see fit? Are the web police coming?

From: Eric Bohlman <ebohlman (AT) earthlink (DOT) net
Organization: OMS Development
Newsgroups: alt.html.critique
Date: 1 Nov 2003 22:38:08 GMT
Subject: Re: HOW competition

Nobody in this thread was disagreeing with that. They were saying that the
winning entries in an ideal competition would provide a real-life
demonstration of "Usable. Accessible. Visually exciting. Pick any
*three*." Something a lot of people, and you write as if you're one of
them, seem unable or unwilling to believe is possible.

From: Eric Bohlman <ebohlman (AT) earthlink (DOT) net
Organization: OMS Development
Newsgroups: alt.html.critique
Date: 1 Nov 2003 22:38:08 GMT
Subject: Re: HOW competition

Good design always works with, rather than fights, the inherent
characteristics of the medium.

But other forms of design & art don't have to conform to
accessibility. If someone is color blind, then they just don't
see that ad in the magazine the way other people do. If they
need reading glasses to read a book, well they put them on
or just don't read the book.
If a client wants Flash and it's not going to hurt his business
to have it, why shouldn't he have it?
I don't know, it all just has a very political feel. It's seems
like internet PC, and when something gets shoved down my
throat enough, sooner or latter I'm going to regurgitate it.
I'd just as soon relax and do what I can do the way I do it.
I'm not forcing anyone to pay attention to it or like it.

Sh*t, all I did was mention a competition thinking someone
might benefit. Apparently no one here thinks that something
that meet standards could possibly compete. I had thought
they could. I must be wrong.

iehsmith wrote:

From: "William Tasso" <news27 (AT) tbdata (DOT) com
...
accessibility pre-requisites for entry to your design competition

It's not my contest!!! I only wish I owned HOW magazine. If
I did own a magazine who's subject matter were design,
then I figure any competition I had would probably be based
on... um, design?

of course - and you have read the notes in this thread by Eric Bohlman on
medium.

So think on this. My business does a lot of presentations - a bit of a
stage management and the opening sequence fills the air with smoke, noise
and flashing lights to introduce the opening speaker. I was thinking of
taking out a series of full page magazine ads to reach a wider audience.
Unfortunately, I've yet to find a designer that can translate our stage show
to paper - still smoke and static lighting just doesn't do it, and the
sound - well you can imagine how frustrating that is. So what do you think?
I write off all the designers as stupid and pass of the opportunity or I
comission something different that works with a paper medium.

I doubt seriously that they are worried in the least about
gaining the support of this little group.

LOL - and you care so passionately on their behalf.

One more thought: You know what viral marketing is? Just check the usenet
nics of the regular contributors here - then do a few searches of recent
posts at the archive. You might be surprised how far your message could be
spread with a little care and thought on your part.

geez! It was just a heads up for those who might be interested...
not a challenge to anyone's way of life!

hmmm - the challenging seems to have come from you.

Unfortunately for me, I have to exclude myself from such
considerations being completely 'design' challenged.

Well, I'm not completely design challenged, but in the
case of web development I am. I usually acid test in
NS 4.79, so lots of the CSS sites (that supposed
grant us the ability to design) just turn into plain text
sites or, probably in combination with DHTML, simply
disappear.

You're right - lots do.

I can't "design" around the standards.

Yes you can - if you apply yourself to the task.

As for me though, I don't need everyone to be able to see
my site,

It's an oft repeated mantra that is unfortunately flawed. Where's the
demographic profiling data that correlates spend with technology employed?

if I ever really get it built. Even at that, I feel
like I should put up atleast 3 versions... 1) the way I
want it, 2) allowing for the way the viewer wants it,
and then 3) in plain unadulterated text.

That takes the nostalgia thing to unprecedented extremes. Three versions of
every page will be an administrative nightmare.

...
I don't have a problem with anyone who chooses to stick
to standards and accessibility. But I do find design relevant
in the world of commerce and communications, online or off.

indeed it is, but that last note sounds like they're mutually exclusive -
are they?

--
William Tasso - http://WilliamTasso.com