Can anything be done?

"Bonnie Granat" <bgranat (AT) granatedit (DOT) com> wrote

rf wrote:

Live with it or go out and by a screen capable of 1600x1200 but *do
not* expect your viewers to.

That's just not the point at all....... <sigh

If Opera and NS can let you size the text, IE should. You have entirely
missed the point.

No I have not missed the point. You have.

IE *DOES* allow you, a viewer, to resize the font. Somewhere fromt 70% to
130% of the standard font size chosen for that particular computer. If you
don't like this then *you* use another browser or *you* use another
operating system. Don't assume *you* know better than *I* about *my* viewing
preferences and *don't* change my font size.

IE was around long before opera and NS (I assume you mean NS7+). So, the way
IE does it is just the way it is. You cannot change this, unless you have
Bills ear. Stop now and move on to something more important.

Reading type that is too big can cause rapid fatigue. ; )

Once again, in *your* opinion.

No, not just in my opinion. It's a scientific fact. Just because you never
heard of eye fatique doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Oh, bonnie, bullshit. Where are your facts. Come on, cite some refrerence
material that supports this. Please point me to the "scientific" papers on
which you base this comment.

Cheers
Richard.

"Bonnie Granat" <bgranat (AT) granatedit (DOT) com> schreef in bericht
news:403167ce (AT) andromeda (DOT) dragon.com...

In case it matters:
running a 1024x768 resolution, and a maximal sized browser window.

This is at 1024x768 or at 800x600? What size type? Largest? (Note that the
subject of this thread is the large type at 800x600; I presume you are
talking about how it looks in IE 5.5 at high resolution (see below, where
I
address that issue).

Well you've made some changes, as it looks good now.
I've tested it under 640x480 and up to 1280x1024.
I allways use maximum sized browsers, but also tested it with a browser
window at 640x480
and different type settings.
The subject of this thread seems to be "Can anything be done?"

At 1280x1024, on the largest type setting in IE6, the page looks like this
at about 40% of the full window:

http://www.granatedit.com/samuel2.html

I've tested it under the same resolution with a browser window sized at
640x480
using the largest type setting, and it looked fine.

So, at the largest type size in IE 6, the page works as well as it
possibly
can.

Since you made some change it also seems to work fine under IE5.5 SP2

Haven't most people abandoned IE 5.5 because of its problems? (Even
Microsoft?)

Why should people abandon IE5.5?
Surely IE6 can't be a lot better, its still Microsoft.
Besides i haven't seen any CSS Layout yet that works only under IE6 and not
under 5.5.
Updating to IE6 is just a step to small if you ask me, only with giant leaps
i would update.


Regards,
Samuël

Quoth the raven named Bonnie Granat:

rf wrote:

Live with it or go out and by a screen capable of 1600x1200 but
*do not* expect your viewers to.

That's just not the point at all....... <sigh

If Opera and NS can let you size the text, IE should. You have
entirely missed the point.

Bonnie, if your IE isn't letting you resize the text, then there is
something wrong with your IE. /My/ IE6 allows me to resize your pages
just fine.

With an 800x600 window, it is too small to read at "Smallest," ok at
"Smaller," etc, and way too large at "Largest." (In fact, at Largest,
the content slips under the menu.)

--
-bts
-This space intentionally left blank.

kchayka wrote:

Bonnie Granat wrote:

I said that if my only choice were low resolution
(800x600,say), sites like mine would be unpleasant to read because
the type is so large -- in Internet Explorer.

I have 20/350 in both eyes, and I used to need lenses or glasses for
everything. Now I don't need them for the computer or anything
within one foot of my eyes. ; )

Do you sit within one foot of your monitor?

Yup. I'm just at a normal distance. ; ) Desk, keyboard, chair --
everything's right.

Honestly, you must be

closer than that if you really do have a 15-inch monitor set at screen
size 1280x1024.

Nope. Measured it with a ruler. One foot from my eyeballs to the glass of
the screen.

I'm using that size on a 17-inch monitor (~16-inch

diagonal) and text on most sites looks like fly droppings. Or did you
change the dpi so text is larger than at the default 96dpi?

Nope. I'm at the default. Just checked.

BTW, your site in IE6 at smallest text size is far too small for my
reading comfort. The navbar is virtually unreadable. It's
mind-boggling how it can look too large to you.

Hang on a minute. I am saying that it looks too large only in low
resolution. I am not talking about ME, I am talking about the people who
will view it at 800 x 600. While I would prefer it a tad smaller in 1024 x
1280, it's okay as it is.

Maybe an example from Outlook Express would be more illustrative: I use the
Smallest setting for reading messages and I use Lucida Sans Unicode, because
it's smaller than most other fonts and great to read. That's my preferred
size of type. In high resolutions, my site is not that small to me in IE,
and I cannot make it smaller. In Opera and NS, I *can* make it smaller, but
I don't like those browsers.

Anyway, I'm fine. All's well. One day, IE will let you zoom in or out like
Opera and NS do today. But my size issue was not about me -- it was about
people who view my site in 800x600 and like small type like I do. They will
say, like I do, "Why is the the type so big?"

Bonnie

rf wrote:

"Bonnie Granat" <bgranat (AT) granatedit (DOT) com> wrote in message
news:4031ca26 (AT) andromeda (DOT) dragon.com...
rf wrote:

Live with it or go out and by a screen capable of 1600x1200 but *do
not* expect your viewers to.

That's just not the point at all....... <sigh

If Opera and NS can let you size the text, IE should. You have
entirely missed the point.

No I have not missed the point. You have.

IE *DOES* allow you, a viewer, to resize the font. Somewhere fromt
70% to 130% of the standard font size chosen for that particular
computer. If you don't like this then *you* use another browser or
*you* use another operating system. Don't assume *you* know better
than *I* about *my* viewing preferences and *don't* change my font
size.

IE was around long before opera and NS (I assume you mean NS7+). So,
the way IE does it is just the way it is. You cannot change this,
unless you have Bills ear. Stop now and move on to something more
important.

A rational person would simply say, "Yes, that's true. It would be nice if
IE did what Opera and NS do with regard to sizing." But no, you have to
give me an argument about it. Any sane person knows that my point is valid.

Reading type that is too big can cause rapid fatigue. ; )

Once again, in *your* opinion.

No, not just in my opinion. It's a scientific fact. Just because you
never heard of eye fatique doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Oh, bonnie, bullshit. Where are your facts. Come on, cite some
refrerence material that supports this. Please point me to the
"scientific" papers on which you base this comment.

Google on "saccade fatigue reading large letters" for information.


--

Bonnie Granat
www.granatedit.com

Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:

Quoth the raven named Bonnie Granat:

rf wrote:

Live with it or go out and by a screen capable of 1600x1200 but
*do not* expect your viewers to.

That's just not the point at all....... <sigh

If Opera and NS can let you size the text, IE should. You have
entirely missed the point.

Bonnie, if your IE isn't letting you resize the text, then there is
something wrong with your IE. /My/ IE6 allows me to resize your pages
just fine.

With an 800x600 window, it is too small to read at "Smallest," ok at
"Smaller," etc, and way too large at "Largest." (In fact, at Largest,
the content slips under the menu.)

It does let me resize -- Smallest, Smaller, Medium, Larger, Largest.

I am saying that at 800x600, Smallest is not small enough. So people who use
800x600 resolution and who like small type like I do will not find my site
easy to read. All of the rest of you will, though.


--

Bonnie Granat
www.granatedit.com

jake wrote:

Also, Tahoma appears -- visually -- to be a 'big' font, see:

http://www.gododdin.demon.co.uk/ng/verdana.htm (sizes in %) or
http://www.gododdin.demon.co.uk/ng/verdana2.htm (sizes in pt)

** So, if the text size is bothering you, then take Tahoma out of the
list of suggested fonts so that most people see Arial or something
similar. **

(Note; If I switch over to Opera and look at your site in my own
preferred font -- Georgia, with 'View/Zoom' set to 100% -- the text
seems quite 'normal'.)

But --if you do this -- then your navigation lists may well be too
small and will have to be set back to 100%.

I'll try that, Jake. Thanks! Well, it doesn't work. Same size, virtually,
without Tahoma.

OK. Maybe I *do* have a problem with my particular version of IE.

I also just realized that I don't understand the Smallest, Smaller, Medium,
Large, Larger settings, apparently.

I suppose I thought that Medium would be what the page in the browser
specified, but now that I think about it, it seems that Smaller is the
setting for what the page in the browser window specifies. In other words,
on my site, I cannot get any smaller than 100%. So it appears that Smaller
is what the page presents. Period. So in IE, you can get larger, but not
smaller than what the page specifies.

Bonnie

In message <40325cb3 (AT) andromeda (DOT) dragon.com>, Bonnie Granat
<bgranat (AT) granatedit (DOT) com> writes
[snip]

I suppose I thought that Medium would be what the page in the browser
specified, but now that I think about it, it seems that Smaller is the
setting for what the page in the browser window specifies. In other words,
on my site, I cannot get any smaller than 100%. So it appears that Smaller
is what the page presents. Period. So in IE, you can get larger, but not
smaller than what the page specifies.

Bonnie


It's 100% of whatever your default is.

So .......... checking it again in IE6 @ 800x600:

largest -- too big *for me*
larger -- too big *for me*
medium -- OK, if a fraction too big *for me*
smaller -- slightly too small *for me*
smallest -- too small *for me*

I can't think of any reason why you shouldn't be able to get the full
range of sizes from 'smallest' to 'largest' @ 100% :-(

Anyway, 800x600 users aren't going to have any problem reading your
pages, so I don't think it's worth worrying about.

regards.
--
Jake

Quoth the raven named Bonnie Granat:

jake wrote:

Also, Tahoma appears -- visually -- to be a 'big' font, see:

http://www.gododdin.demon.co.uk/ng/verdana.htm (sizes in %) or
http://www.gododdin.demon.co.uk/ng/verdana2.htm (sizes in pt)

** So, if the text size is bothering you, then take Tahoma out of
the list of suggested fonts so that most people see Arial or
something similar. **

(Note; If I switch over to Opera and look at your site in my own
preferred font -- Georgia, with 'View/Zoom' set to 100% -- the
text seems quite 'normal'.)

But --if you do this -- then your navigation lists may well be
too small and will have to be set back to 100%.

I'll try that, Jake. Thanks! Well, it doesn't work. Same size,
virtually, without Tahoma.

Tahoma is a bit sharp. Try
font-family: "Trebuchet MS", Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;

OK. Maybe I *do* have a problem with my particular version of IE.

I also just realized that I don't understand the Smallest, Smaller,
Medium, Large, Larger settings, apparently.

What's not to understand? If the author has used % instead of px or
pt, the Smaller setting will display the page with letters that are...
well.. smaller than they were at Medium.

Maybe this page of mine will help with the description:
http://www.fingerlakesbmw.org/main/f...php?page=learn
See the third paragraph.

I suppose I thought that Medium would be what the page in the
browser specified, but now that I think about it, it seems that
Smaller is the setting for what the page in the browser window
specifies. In other words, on my site, I cannot get any smaller
than 100%. So it appears that Smaller is what the page presents.
Period. So in IE, you can get larger, but not smaller than what the
page specifies.

IIRC, old IE5 equated 100% with Medium. Then IE6 came out and 100% was
now Smaller. Which drove px and pt authors to further reduce their
font size to settings like 10px. Or flyspecks for users of other
browsers, or those without Verdana. <g>

--
-bts
-This space intentionally left blank.

Bonnie Granat wrote:

- In the Internet Explorer browser, if onw is using low resolution, one
cannot reduce the size of the text on the screen enough to make the type
size comparable to what it is in high resolution.

Open up your display properties and set an accurate dpi.

To figure out what your dpi should be, divide your screen's horizontal
resolution in pixels by your screen's horizontal width in inches.

That should fix fonts to sensible sizes.

--
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
Contact Me - http://www.goddamn.co.uk/tobyink/?page=132