site design technologies required heads up please

Hi,

I'm needing to design a site with various features, and I'm looking for the
best routes to go down to achive it.
By which I mean should I be using PHP, mySQL, ASP.NET etc etc?

The site is fairly typical, but I want to ensure I host it on the correct
hosting package to start off with.

Requirements are:

usual few straightforward 'homepages'
a members only area, acessed by a login
self-administering user registration to go with the login.
registration details will be stored ina database and will include non
sensitive info which is viewable/searchable by members.
probably a guestbook or noticeboard type area.
an area for users to post messages and photos (could be same as "guestbook
or noticeboard type area")
possibly simple ecommerce at a later date.

so what are good methods/systems to use to achieve the above?

Gazing into my crystal ball I observed "Steve"
<nomail (AT) spambot (DOT) thanks.com> writing in
news:d5qnv7$23s$1 (AT) nwrdmz02 (DOT) dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com:

Hi,

I'm needing to design a site with various features, and I'm looking for
the best routes to go down to achive it.
By which I mean should I be using PHP, mySQL, ASP.NET etc etc?

The site is fairly typical, but I want to ensure I host it on the
correct hosting package to start off with.

Requirements are:

usual few straightforward 'homepages'
a members only area, acessed by a login
self-administering user registration to go with the login.
registration details will be stored ina database and will include non
sensitive info which is viewable/searchable by members.
probably a guestbook or noticeboard type area.
an area for users to post messages and photos (could be same as
"guestbook or noticeboard type area")
possibly simple ecommerce at a later date.

so what are good methods/systems to use to achieve the above?

I would go with PHP and MySQL, or ASP Classic. I would not go with ASP.Net
because it seems to spit out really bad, bloated markup.

--
Adrienne Boswell
http://www.cavalcade-of-coding.info
Please respond to the group so others can share

"Steve" <nomail (AT) spambot (DOT) thanks.com> wrote in
news:d5qnv7$23s$1 (AT) nwrdmz02 (DOT) dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com:

Hi,

I'm needing to design a site with various features, and I'm
looking for the best routes to go down to achive it.
By which I mean should I be using PHP, mySQL, ASP.NET etc
etc?

The site is fairly typical, but I want to ensure I host it
on the correct hosting package to start off with.

Requirements are:

usual few straightforward 'homepages'
a members only area, acessed by a login
self-administering user registration to go with the login.
registration details will be stored ina database and will
include non sensitive info which is viewable/searchable by
members. probably a guestbook or noticeboard type area.
an area for users to post messages and photos (could be
same as "guestbook or noticeboard type area")
possibly simple ecommerce at a later date.

so what are good methods/systems to use to achieve the
above?

While going with a PHP/MySQL combinaiton is most recommended,
I would further say that your needs would be well met using a
Content Mananagement System (CMS) such as XOOPS, or any one
of the many out there. Have a look at

XOOPS: http://www.xoops.org
CMS in general: http://www.opensourcecms.com/
and http://www.cmsmatrix.org/

If you like reading then this report may be good for you.. (a
bit heavy, but informative - 113 pages.)
http://www.michelinakis.gr/Dimitris/cms/oscms-report.pdf

Looking around for a hosting package that offers many options
to support your intended site is a good idea, since not all
hosting companies offer a wide choice of scripts/add-ons.

--
KHaled

e-mail: khaledihREMOVEUPPERCASELETTERS at fusemail dot com
(correcting antispam crap..)
please start your subject line with the string "==NG=="

KHaled <khaledih (AT) fusemail (DOT) com> writes:

While going with a PHP/MySQL combinaiton is most recommended,

But why? Sorry for a bit ranting, but i still don't understand why
everyone is so excited about one of the worsest language created
ever (ok, Visual Basic and Brainfuck are worse).

There are so many really good languages (like Pike, Python, Ruby,
Common Lisp, Self, Fortress, Nice, Squeak, Scala,...), so why do
so many people choose an ad-hoc language, a kind of a planless
pile of a bunch of features? The syntax is a bit confusing even if
you like this kind of algol-based syntax, the semantics are often
just dangerous and very error-prone. And then look at the many
security bugs in the main system (yes, they are patched, but how
many server administrators out there are really updating that
often and fast).

I think even C or Java are much better than PHP, so what do you
guys like about PHP so much? I know of no single feature in PHP
that's not (even better) available in some other language.

If anyone cares, my favorites are Python (with Myghty) and (even
more) Common Lisp (for example with Uncommon Web (quite young
library but really astonishing) and CL-SQL).

By the way: I would prefer Postgresql over MySQL (at least if you
really need a database and not something that's solved nearly as
easily with a bunch of text files).

--
Stefan.

Stefan Nobis <snobis (AT) gmx (DOT) de> wrote in
news:874qdaje1h.fsf (AT) snobis (DOT) de:

You are free to chose whatever you like, but it seems to me
that PHP/MySQL evolved to address a specific need, and that
is to provide interactive database driven sites. If you see
weaknesses in either then that is possible, and I would
suggest that you log onto their forum boards and share with
the developer community your positive feedback.

As to the other scripting languages you mention, these
evolved as shell extensions to UNIX, objective being to
perform basic (text mostly) data manipulation. I would love
to see a database driven site in LISP.. Or better still, a
CMS developed in LISP..

Java is certainly a major force, and is highly recommended,
in the right context, but the OP was asking about PHP vs ASP,
so that was why I responded as I did.

--
KHaled

e-mail: khaledihREMOVEUPPERCASELETTERS at fusemail dot com
(correcting antispam crap..)
please start your subject line with the string "==NG=="

KHaled wrote:

While going with a PHP/MySQL combinaiton is most recommended,
I would further say that your needs would be well met using a
Content Mananagement System (CMS) such as XOOPS, or any one
of the many out there. Have a look at

XOOPS: http://www.xoops.org
CMS in general: http://www.opensourcecms.com/
and http://www.cmsmatrix.org/

If you like reading then this report may be good for you.. (a
bit heavy, but informative - 113 pages.)
http://www.michelinakis.gr/Dimitris/cms/oscms-report.pdf

great stuff - anyone got any similar recommendations/pointers for
shopping carts ?

Thanks
Chris

KHaled <khaledih (AT) fusemail (DOT) com> writes:

As to the other scripting languages you mention, these
evolved as shell extensions to UNIX,

Did they? You mean for example Python (developed by someone with
some expertise on learning to make a real world useable language
that's also easy to learn) or Squeak (a open source Smalltalk
implementation), Scala (developed as a modern language, which
compiles to .NET or JVM bytecode, with web services in mind) are
just evolved as shell extensions to UNIX? Please give at least a
little proof for this.

If i had mentioned Perl your comment would be at least half-true
for one of the languages (it not merely evolved as a shell
extension, Larry Wall (a linguist) also wanted to try to go new
ways in language design -- many, he himself, count some of these
tries errors today, so Perl6 will be quite a new language).

objective being to perform basic (text mostly) data
manipulation.

Uh, and HTML processing is a quite different beast than (text)
data manipulation.

In short: Many languages solve the problems in dynamic web
programming far better than PHP -- so why do so many people stick
with such a bad tool?

I would love to see a database driven site in LISP.. Or better
still, a CMS developed in LISP..

Ever heard about Viaweb? There are also others and some companies
use (even for web services) lisp dialects in-house.

--
Stefan.

Chris Sharman <chris.sharman (AT) sorry (DOT) nospam> wrote in
news:d5t11l$4bp$2$8302bc10 (AT) news (DOT) demon.co.uk:

great stuff - anyone got any similar
recommendations/pointers for shopping carts ?

Thanks
Chris

You may want to look at Agora, which is a fairly simple cart
that does not require PHP/MySQL, or OS Commerce (and Zen
Cart) which do require PHP/MySQL.

Agora: http://www.agoracart.com/
Zen-Cart: http://www.zen-cart.com
osCommerece: http://www.oscommerce.com/

Your hosting provider should have at least one of these..

Another option is to use a service such as 2checkout, which
will allow you to have a simple page for your product, and
enable you to do online sales. They require that you have a
descriptive web page for your products on your site. So,
depending on the number and type of items that you are
selling then all you may need is a web page for the item, and
a pointer to 2checkout.

http://2checkout.com/

--
KHaled

e-mail: khaledihREMOVEUPPERCASELETTERS at fusemail dot com
(correcting antispam crap..)
please start your subject line with the string "==NG=="

kaeli <tiny_one (AT) NOSPAM (DOT) comcast.net> writes:

Neither of those comes free with most web hosts. PHP is commonly
found on cheap web hosts.

Today, yes, but it went the other way round -- first everyone runs
to PHP and then web hoster created offerings with PHP included.

I'm still curious: I developed in many different languages and
only very few (like VB) felt as bad as PHP. So what are people
seeing in PHP?

C is nearly impossible to use for website scripting,

Then you did something wrong or never really tried. And there are
some weblibs for plain old C out there. But i admit it's not a
very beginner friendly language (but neither is PHP compared to
the alternatives).

Given a choice, PHP is easy, fast, does awesome things quickly
with database interactions, and is FREE.

And with Python, Scala, Lisp,... it's even easier, much faster,
much quicker to develop, much less error prone and easier to read
and maintain. So everything else but PHP should be hyped.

OK, today PHP has the critical masses and hoster provide it per
default. But how does it come?

Open your mind.

I know about two or three dozen language with about a dozen or so
in which i did at least some small to medium projects. So i think,
my mind is open -- there are better alternatives at hand in really
every (technical) aspect (and they were at hand when PHP did come
in). So i try to understand why people more often than not choose
the technical worse solution or tool (surley not the first and not
the last time). That's a point i'm unable to open my mind to till
today.

--
Stefan.

In article <87br7htq4t.fsf (AT) snobis (DOT) de>, snobis (AT) gmx (DOT) de enlightened us with...

kaeli <tiny_one (AT) NOSPAM (DOT) comcast.net> writes:

Neither of those comes free with most web hosts. PHP is commonly
found on cheap web hosts.

Today, yes, but it went the other way round -- first everyone runs
to PHP and then web hoster created offerings with PHP included.

I would have to disagree on that a bit.
I know I didn't "run to it" until it was already an offering. Given a choice
between a cheap host that offered PHP and an expensive host that offered
ColdFusion, I chose PHP.
I began to learn it when I needed scripting and the host I was already on had
a choice between PHP and Perl. I don't much like Perl for web stuff. PITA.
PHP, OTOH, easily works with Dreamweaver, which I have and use. Took me 5
minutes to hook up and be doing DB interaction pages. I still can't manage
that with Perl.

This is just my experience with it.
Also, PHP has a lot of open source tools that do things I like, and they plug
in easy as pie. Coppermine as a web gallery, for example.

I'm still curious: I developed in many different languages and
only very few (like VB) felt as bad as PHP. So what are people
seeing in PHP?

Again, you have to look at things from another POV -- most of us don't get to
choose an environment. We have to go with a web host, who offers only some
things. They can offer free things, like PHP and Perl, or things that cost
money (or take more configs and baby-sitting), like ColdFusion, ASP, and JSP.
And what they offer often depends on whether they are Unix or Windows based.

It's not what people see in just the language (I hate PHP syntax and it's the
only language I use a generator for).
It's the whole kit and kaboodle.

Practically speaking, for a web application, I have only the following
choices widely available:
PHP
Perl CGI
ASP / .NET
Java / servlets / JSP / J2EE
Cold Fusion

Note that I adore Cold Fusion as a tool for myself, but getting a host for it
costs far too much for me. I believe Unix is a better environment for a web
server most of the time, so that kicks out .net. Most hosts don't like to
support java and I personally don't really like servlets and find JSP to be
too much aof a bear to bother with for small things. I hate Perl. So that
leaves PHP.
See how that works?
If I trusted IIS on a cheap host, I'd always go with .net. It's my preferred
choice. But I don't trust cheap hosts to keep their servers patched and IIS
has a LOT of vulnerabilities.

C is nearly impossible to use for website scripting,

Then you did something wrong or never really tried. And there are
some weblibs for plain old C out there. But i admit it's not a
very beginner friendly language (but neither is PHP compared to
the alternatives).

Again, it's not my choice.
I don't own and operate a web server. Nor do most people. Large companies do.
Large companies use frameworks for B2B apps, like j2EE or .net.
And why would I want to use it when there are so many other languages out
there that were made specifically for web scripting, anyway?
Note that I do not include C# in this. I adore C#.NET.
Given that we have C#.NET, why the hell would you want to use C?

And in the large scheme of things, who wants to waste time screwing with a
language that wasn't meant for web scripting to try and force it to do that?
This is the very reason PHP pretty much replaced (is replacing) Perl CGI.
I don't want to spend hours re-creating the wheel and trying to find
libraries to do things. I want my app up and running yesterday.

Don't even get into the fact that C needs compiled.

Given a choice, PHP is easy, fast, does awesome things quickly
with database interactions, and is FREE.

And with Python, Scala, Lisp,... it's even easier, much faster,
much quicker to develop, much less error prone and easier to read
and maintain. So everything else but PHP should be hyped.

Python, IMHO, sucks balls. I spent 5 minutes on it, grunted, and left it
alone. Anything that makes blocks using white space is not my idea of a good
time. YMMV.
And yet again, while language choice is a personal one, you have to take into
consideration the full environment. Many projects use the MVC design pattern,
which is rather hard to accomplish with many of the scripting languages,
including Python. Only .net and j2ee/jsp truly allow it in its most strict
form. PHP can come close, but you still need scriptlets, which ruins it.
You know what PHP is? It's Perl CGI on steroids. That's all. It's for Perl
people who don't want to screw with Perl CGI. Makes it easier to get the HTML
output right and doesn't need so much mucking around with output (500 lines
of out.print(html crap), anyone?).
I have yet to see a full-scale B2B application use PHP. I suspect I never
will. But it's an awesome choice for small things on hosted servers.

OK, today PHP has the critical masses and hoster provide it per
default. But how does it come?

If I understand what you're asking, it came about from Perl scripters who
wanted a neater solution. There were already a lot of people using Perl CGI
on the web. They moved to PHP and then other people started getting in on it.
Considering that most people who want scripted things are really small-timers
who just want a forum or a gallery or a blog (small things), PHP is a great
choice for them. They could never have used Perl, as it takes too much
learning and configuring. You have to already know how to code.
PHP apps just plug in. You change a few things with the GUI and you're good
to go. No programming required unless you want to get really fancy.

Open your mind.

I know about two or three dozen language with about a dozen or so
in which i did at least some small to medium projects. So i think,
my mind is open

Your mind is open only to your view of the world. It's not that you're a code
snob. Far from it. But you seem to think other people have the options you
have, when they really don't.
See what other people see and you'll understand why we use PHP.
Stop thinking of things in terms of what you can do. If you get to use
whatever server you want in whatever environment you want with any language
you want, that's awesome. Most of us do not have that luxury.

--
--
~kaeli~
A man needs a mistress... just to break the monogamy.
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace