site design technologies required heads up please

In article <MPG.1cf54ce123f83a0298a5b0 (AT) news (DOT) individual.net>,
lauri (AT) raittila (DOT) cjb.net enlightened us with...

Of course not. I learned enough to fix simple image gallery
(http://lauri.cambridgelaan.nl/index.phps)

Coppermine is your friend, when you're ready.
http://coppermine.sourceforge.net/

Super easy install, too.
Just download it to your PC, then upload it to your host. Run the GUI and
you're all set.
(assuming you have MySQL set up for you by host admins or can do it yourself)

Tell me one that you can learn in an hour to make trivial case.

Cold Fusion.
ASP.NET

I had simple tasks up and running within an hour.

Of course
PHP is not too good for any real programming.

It can be.
It can be awesome. It's just not as easy to do complex things in it as in
other frameworks / languages. And I wouldn't use it for big enterprise
applications. But that isn't what it's for. But that doesn't mean it isn't
good for "real" programming. Just that it isn't good for enterprise
applications.

I think that many languages require you to first set it up somehow, PHP
is most likely already supported...

PHP also requires installation and setup. The admins have simply already done
it for you.

I think the reason why our opinions differ is that you are good
programmer. Good programmers don't need easy languages, they are far
better off with powerful languages.

That's debatable.
For one, PHP is far from the easiest language for newbies. It has pitfalls
that can really trip people up, even experienced coders.
VB.net is far more intuitive from what I've heard.
And "easy" languages are often chosen by experienced coders simply because
choosing the right tool for the job includes considering development time.

Opinions differ because human beings have opinions.

--
--
~kaeli~
Is it true that cannibals don't eat clowns because they
taste funny?
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace

Lauri Raittila <lauri (AT) raittila (DOT) cjb.net> writes:

in comp.infosystems.www.authoring.site-design, Bruce Lewis wrote:
After all that work, people aren't going to feel inclined to
learn another language, because it was so difficult to learn the first
one.

The fact is that it is much easier to learn PHP than program for web on
almost any other language, especially on trivial cases.

Second, you get a strong feeling of accomplishment when you get
something done using a difficult language like PHP.

Exaxctly what tool is easier?

I find that generalized arguments about programming languages go
nowhere. A concrete example is essential to meaningful discussion.
When we have a PHP example in front of us I'll say what tool is easier.

Please post some example code illustrating how easy it is to learn PHP
for some specific trivial case. I will respond with my own example
code.

Don't make your example overly trivial. You've asserted that it is much
easier to learn PHP, but too trivial an example will be just as easy to
learn in a non-PHP language. Choose an example complex enough to
illustrate PHP's strengths, but simple enough for non-programmers on
this group to read it and understand what it's doing.

Lauri Raittila <lauri (AT) raittila (DOT) cjb.net> writes:

Tell me one that you can learn in an hour to make trivial case.

Python, Scheme, Logo,... even Common Lisp, Ada and many more if
you allow one or two hours more for setup of and getting used to
development environment.

I tried to learn elisp last week

Hmmm... ELisp is a bit harder i would say. If you are interesed in
an easy to learn Lisp dialect, i would choose Scheme
(implementations DrScheme or Bigloo). I prefer CL, but think
Scheme is easier for newcomers.

--
Stefan.

In article <871x84z117.fsf (AT) snobis (DOT) de>, snobis (AT) gmx (DOT) de enlightened us with...

Lauri Raittila <lauri (AT) raittila (DOT) cjb.net> writes:

Tell me one that you can learn in an hour to make trivial case.

Python, Scheme, Logo,... even Common Lisp, Ada and many more if
you allow one or two hours more for setup of and getting used to
development environment.

Please tell me which internet hosts support these languages.
I can find PHP hosts a dime a dozen.

--
--
~kaeli~
Well, aren't we just a flipping ray of sunshine?
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace

kaeli <tiny_one (AT) NOSPAM (DOT) comcast.net> writes:

Please tell me which internet hosts support these languages.
I can find PHP hosts a dime a dozen.

If you google for "vps hosting" you'll find lots of sites where you can
run whatever web server you choose. Even with shared hosting, CGI opens
up a multitude of languages so long as the startup time isn't too bad.

Nobody's saying PHP isn't widely installed. I'll just say that having
it already installed is where the ease of use ends.

In article <nm9psvnmjdg.fsf (AT) mint-square (DOT) mit.edu>, brlspam (AT) yahoo (DOT) com
enlightened us with...

kaeli <tiny_one (AT) NOSPAM (DOT) comcast.net> writes:

Please tell me which internet hosts support these languages.
I can find PHP hosts a dime a dozen.

If you google for "vps hosting" you'll find lots of sites where you can
run whatever web server you choose. Even with shared hosting, CGI opens
up a multitude of languages so long as the startup time isn't too bad.

Exactly: whatever you choose.
They aren't already installed, and unless you are familiar enough with *nix
to install them (I'm not, and I use it all the time, but not as root), you're
generally stuck. I can install things on Windows, but not *nix.

I looked at some of those, and the prices are pretty steep for most that
allow root access (with install and server config options), too.
(but I must admit I am intrigued by the idea of having root access to install
things and I might check a cheap one out to play with...)

You can't have it both ways -- if you want to be able to config the web
server for your own apps, you need your own server, not a shared one. And
that costs money. Most people don't want to pay $50-100 a month for hosting
their small application when they can pay $5-10 a month.

Nobody's saying PHP isn't widely installed. I'll just say that having
it already installed is where the ease of use ends.

That's nothing to sneeze at, especially since this thread is mostly about
what is easy for new people to use. How many new web coders even know what a
compiler IS? That's a programming concept, not a web design concept. Then to
get into compiled vs interpreted, how to point the web server to the
compiler, etc.
It may seem simple to someone who is used to installing and configuing web
servers and compilers (and programming!), but to those who never get to admin
their own systems, having something already installed and configured is a big
deal.
A newbie can either get a host with PHP or get a host that she can do what
she wants with. She's never coded before. Which one is easier? The one where
everything is set up, or the one she has to install servers, configure
things, and so on?
The VPS is a great idea for people who already know what they're doing, but
for a newbie, it's major info overload.

--
--
~kaeli~
"When dogma enters the brain, all intellectual activity
ceases" -- Robert Anton Wilson
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace

kaeli <tiny_one (AT) NOSPAM (DOT) comcast.net> writes:

Please tell me which internet hosts support these languages. I
can find PHP hosts a dime a dozen.

That's not the point -- it was said PHP is the easiest to
learn. But neverless within the few hosters i know IIRC all
support at least PHP, Perl, Python and also CGI and Fast-CGI.

So Python should be no big deal and with Fast-CGI (or CGI if
startup-time is less important) you get nearly every other
language.

--
Stefan.

kaeli <tiny_one (AT) NOSPAM (DOT) comcast.net> writes:

They aren't already installed, and unless you are familiar enough with *nix
to install them (I'm not, and I use it all the time, but not as root), you're
generally stuck. I can install things on Windows, but not *nix.

I think you're 99% of the way to being able to install things on *nix,
in that you can type. On Debian it's "apt-get install [package]". On
RedHat I think it's "yum" or something.

I looked at some of those, and the prices are pretty steep for most that
allow root access (with install and server config options), too.
(but I must admit I am intrigued by the idea of having root access to install
things and I might check a cheap one out to play with...)

When did you look? I've been paying $20/month at www.linode.com for a
year. I see www.vpsland.com advertising $10/month plans.

Some places are advertising even cheaper:
http://www.hostchart.com/host_vps.asp

Nobody's saying PHP isn't widely installed. I'll just say that having
it already installed is where the ease of use ends.

That's nothing to sneeze at, especially since this thread is mostly about
what is easy for new people to use. How many new web coders even know what a
compiler IS?

It doesn't matter, as compiler knowledge isn't needed. See "apt-get"
and "yum" above. How many new web coders get confused because the PHP
documentation they're looking at doesn't match the version installed at
their hosting provider (e.g. register_globals)?

in comp.infosystems.www.authoring.site-design, Bruce Lewis wrote:

Lauri Raittila <lauri (AT) raittila (DOT) cjb.net> writes:

in comp.infosystems.www.authoring.site-design, Bruce Lewis wrote:
After all that work, people aren't going to feel inclined to
learn another language, because it was so difficult to learn the first
one.

The fact is that it is much easier to learn PHP than program for web on
almost any other language, especially on trivial cases.

Second, you get a strong feeling of accomplishment when you get
something done using a difficult language like PHP.

Exaxctly what tool is easier?

I find that generalized arguments about programming languages go
nowhere. A concrete example is essential to meaningful discussion.
When we have a PHP example in front of us I'll say what tool is easier.

That's good approach. Exactly the reason I why I didn't agree on that PHP
is not easy. It is easy for som things, not easy for other things. Just
like about every other programming language, I guess.

Please post some example code illustrating how easy it is to learn PHP
for some specific trivial case. I will respond with my own example
code.

Only PHP thing that is more or less ready I have is this
http://lauri.cambridgelaan.nl/index.phps
(and result is http://lauri.cambridgelaan.nl/)

Does:
- finds images in folder
- makes gallery out of them, first time it produces thumbs.

It was very easy to do as I wound most of the code ready. I was able to
read and understand what it does whitout any learning, to change
functionality a bit I needed to learn some stuff.

Don't make your example overly trivial. You've asserted that it is much
easier to learn PHP, but too trivial an example will be just as easy to
learn in a non-PHP language. Choose an example complex enough to
illustrate PHP's strengths, but simple enough for non-programmers on
this group to read it and understand what it's doing.

I would count myself non programmer...

--
Lauri Raittila <http://www.iki.fi/lr> <http://www.iki.fi/zwak/fonts>
Utrecht, NL.
Support me, buy Opera:
https://secure.bmtmicro.com/opera/buy-opera.html?AID=882173

In article <nm9ll6bm5ys.fsf (AT) mint-square (DOT) mit.edu>, brlspam (AT) yahoo (DOT) com
enlightened us with...

kaeli <tiny_one (AT) NOSPAM (DOT) comcast.net> writes:

They aren't already installed, and unless you are familiar enough with *nix
to install them (I'm not, and I use it all the time, but not as root), you're
generally stuck. I can install things on Windows, but not *nix.

I think you're 99% of the way to being able to install things on *nix,
in that you can type. On Debian it's "apt-get install [package]". On
RedHat I think it's "yum" or something.

That's it?
I wonder why our sysadmins act like installing things is so darn difficult...
Of course, we have custom Unix Solaris environments and no one can install
anything without root access.

The only *nix experience (command line) I have is here at work, so maybe I'm
overcomplicating things. My Apache host servers don't have root access and
don't let you play with the web server (shared). We have a GUI to set things
up and stuff.
Here, I'm used to IPlanet 6 as the web server, and that thing is a bitch and
a half to configure. My admins let me have the root pass for it when they got
tired of trying to fix it.
I tried to set up Apache at home (windows) once and gave up.

I looked at some of those, and the prices are pretty steep for most that
allow root access (with install and server config options), too.
(but I must admit I am intrigued by the idea of having root access to install
things and I might check a cheap one out to play with...)

When did you look?

The first three matches in Google this morning. *g*

How many new web coders get confused because the PHP
documentation they're looking at doesn't match the version installed at
their hosting provider (e.g. register_globals)?

I don't know on that one, but I do know that I had a "gotcha" when the MySQL
version wasn't the same. Couldn't figure out for the life of me why the damn
query wasn't working.

--
--
~kaeli~
Is it true that cannibals don't eat clowns because they
taste funny?
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart
http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace