Extreme Confusion

That's the whole point - it's a product, _not_ art. You want to _sell_ a
product to as many people as possible. This is not something that is going
to gain value in time, in fact, it will depreciate.
Therefore, it is imperative to consider everyone, including those with
smaller screens, non-computer browsers, devices for the disabled, persons
who are not downloading images, etc.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. Our products ARE "works of art". We labor hard to
make them not only functional, but things of beauty. And we don't want
to "sell to as many people as possible". That is not our goal. We want
to advance the art and science of computer programming. If others are
inspired by and build upon our research, it WILL increase in value over
time. And no, we don't have to consider everyone. The program only runs
on a screen at least 1024 pixels wide. You can't write the kind of
programs we write on a cell phone. And we don't have to consider people
who aren't and don't want to be programmers. It's a compiler, for God's
sake. It's NOT for everyone.

help (AT) osmosian (DOT) com wrote:

Let's ask the public: Should a graphic designer be allowed to specify
the size, shape, colors, and fonts used in his designs, or not? We're
not talking "[our] preconceived notions" here, we're talking COMMON
SENSE and THE HISTORY OF PUBLISHING.

Hi there,
I am part of the public.
And as far as I'm concerned you're not extremely confused
but you're extremely arrogant.

Besides that, you don't know how to quote and you keep yelling at me.

I've been following this discussion but I'm getting very tired of your
views and the way you are promoting them.

My computer is mine, that's why it's called *my* computer.
Leave it be.

GOODDAY TO YOU!

Rob

help (AT) osmosian (DOT) com wrote:

I'm going to try one more time, and that's it.

I'm only going to give it one try, but I doubt you'll see my point.

We're talking design. Should a car designer be allowed to
choose his shapes and metals? Should a dress designer be allowed to
choose his fabrics and dyes? Should a movie producer be allowed to
choose his settings and costumes? Should a painter be allowed to choose
his canvas size and pigments? Should a web designer be allowed to
choose his colors and fonts?

A car is composed of metals. A dress is made up of fabrics. Sets and
costumes define a movie. A painting consists of paint on canvas. The
web does *not* consist of colours and fonts.

--
Garmt de Vries.

The web does *not* consist of colours and fonts.

Of what, then, does a website consist?

help (AT) osmosian (DOT) com wrote:

The web does *not* consist of colours and fonts.

Of what, then, does a website consist?

Structured information, of course.

Whether or not this information is presented visually, and if so, with
what fonts and colours, is up to the user.

To use your own analogy:

The manufacturer builds the car, but it's up to the driver to decide
how fast he will drive. What you propose, is that the car manufacturer
should not only be allowed to choose metals and shapes, but also to
dictate your driving style, which petrol stations you should go to, and
what brand of chewing gum you should put in the glove department.

--
Garmt de Vries.

Does "THIS PHRASE" strike you differently than "this one"?
Of course it does. Because the presentation of information conveys
information itself.
If I say, "Nothing MATTERS" but the user changes the font (and the
emphasis) to
"NOTHING matters", the "structured information" no longer conveys the
same meaning.
You may as well argue that tone of voice doesn't matter.

h... (AT) osmosian (DOT) com wrote:

Does "THIS PHRASE" strike you differently than "this one"?
Of course it does.

No, it doesn't. They sound exactly the same.

Oh wait... perhaps if I read your message on a screen instead of having
it read to me by my voice browser...

Because the presentation of information conveys information itself.

And since you don't know what kinds of presentation are meaningful to
the user, you have to pass the structure itself to the user. He will
have his browser configured in such a way as to make a meaningful
presentation out of the structure you provide.

You rely on presentation alone, and so your meaning is lost on at least
part of your audience.

If I say, "Nothing MATTERS" but the user changes the font (and the emphasis)
to "NOTHING matters", the "structured information" no longer conveys the
same meaning.

If you say, "Nothing <em>matters</em>", and the user has a user
stylesheets that looks like this:
* { text-transform: uppercase }
em { text-transform: lowercase }
then the structured information still conveys the same meaning *to the
user*

You may as well argue that tone of voice doesn't matter.

Of course it matters. That's why my voice browser reads <em>important
text</em> with a louder volume and more stress. But it doesn't know how
to handle <font size=+3 color=red><blink>rubbish like
this</blink></font>, let alone <img src="importantinfo.gif">.

--
Garmt de Vries.

Tone of voice is, to the ear, what font size and style is to the eye.
If you are suggesting that we should limit our presentations to those
things that can be experienced "equally" by the sighted and the blind,
we're afraid we can't agree. "Accessibility" and "reduction to the
least common denominator" are not the same thing.

Hi there,
I am part of the public.
And as far as I'm concerned you're not extremely confused
but you're extremely arrogant

You didn't answer the question: Should a graphic designer be allowed to
specify the size, shape, colors, and fonts used in his designs, or not?

In article <1140390326.114134.139970 (AT) f14g2000cwb (DOT) googlegroups.com>,
help (AT) osmosian (DOT) com wrote:

But OUR website is OUR brochure for OUR product.
WE should be able to determine what OUR brochure looks like.

A yellow screen with an empty rectangle on it? Somehow your brochure
doesn't grab me.

--
http://www.ericlindsay.com