stop or not

Writing in
news:alt.http://www.webmaster,alt.comp.blind-...-accessibility
From the safety of the Almost Normal cafeteria
Brian Gaff <Briang1 (AT) blueyonder (DOT) co.uk> said:

The other newsgroup posted to in recent threads does not exist on my
server,
the html one, so is it a real group or what?

yes [1], fairly low traffic but regularly monitored by a few good souls
(and me <g>)

[1] I'm sure the b/y admins will add the group if you ask them nicely -
they have their own groups just for this purpose, as I'm sure you know.
--
William Tasso

Save the drama
for your Mama.

"William Tasso" <SpamBlocked (AT) tbdata (DOT) com> wrote

Greetings One and All

Hello.

Been musing recently about screen-readers and their interpretation of
text.

How do they cope with full-stops (periods) used to signify an
abbreviation?

No idea. Have you tried it out?

For example: etc.

I think you'll find that 'For Example' is 'E.g.'.

'Et-cetera' is 'Etc.'.

Facetious? Moi?!

Do the period marks assist or are they a hindrance?

I'm inclined to say that they are are part of the language and therefore are
designed to assist us all. Omitting the period would (in theory) make it
more difficult for the majority of us to understand the text. Punctuation is
designed to inform us how the author intended the text to be read. As Grey
has pointed out, the period is what differentiates 'Et-k' from 'Et-Cetera'.

If a given screen reader doesnt handle this situation, then the problem is
with the screen reader and not your markup. Not that it helps the
viewer/listerner.

Like you, I almost forgot about the <abbr> tag; I rarely use it, but maybe I
ought to. I haven't checked but surely a screen reader should avoid the
problem by taking account of the the fact that the period occurs within said
element.

I'd be interested in finding out if you have the time, resources and
inclination to find out...

Thanks for reading.

My pleasure.

Chris

On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 13:50:04 -0000, "William Tasso"
<SpamBlocked (AT) tbdata (DOT) com> wrote:

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From the safety of the http://groups.google.com cafeteria
Chaddy2222 <rockradio2000 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com.au> said:

Wiliam...
Can you give us some sort of an example of what you are talking about.
If it is the situation where you use a range / group of full stops that
you are refering to..
Then yes. There is some times some slight disruption in the overall
flow of the text...

Consider this sentence: "The admin had several housekeeping chores to
attend to, checking backup logs etc. before he could leave for the night."

The question is: how does a screen-reader interpret the period mark at the
end of "etc."? and would it the visitor be better served if the period
were omitted?

In my experience (both developing software for the visually impaired,
using screen readers and working with visually impaired computer
users) the correct use of punctuation (and also spelling) is a real
benefit.

However, incorrect punctuation, such as in your example (it should be
&c. or etc but not etc.) will naturally cause a pause, as it does when
one reads the text.

Doubtless there are screen readers that do not obey correct
punctuation, but one should assume that they shall.

Matt


--
The Probert Encyclopaedia - Beyond Britannica
http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com

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From the safety of the cafeteria
MGW <mgw1979 (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> said:

On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 17:51:35 GMT, comments (AT) probertencyclopaedia (DOT) com
(Matt Probert) scrawled:

However, incorrect punctuation, such as in your example (it should be
&c. or etc but not etc.) will naturally cause a pause, as it does when
one reads the text.

Maybe this is one of those UK vs. US things,

don't think so

but over here etc. *is*
the correct punctuation, since etc. is the abbreviation for et cetera,
and abbreviations are noted by using a period at the end of them.

same here I thought - maybe an 'expert' will pop up and join in

--
William Tasso

Save the drama
for your Mama.

William Tasso wrote:

Writing in
news:alt.http://www.webmaster,alt.comp.blind-...-accessibility
From the safety of the cafeteria
MGW <mgw1979 (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> said:

On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 17:51:35 GMT, comments (AT) probertencyclopaedia (DOT) com
(Matt Probert) scrawled:

However, incorrect punctuation, such as in your example (it should be
&c. or etc but not etc.) will naturally cause a pause, as it does when
one reads the text.

Maybe this is one of those UK vs. US things,

don't think so

me neither

but over here etc. *is*
the correct punctuation, since etc. is the abbreviation for et cetera,
and abbreviations are noted by using a period at the end of them.

same here I thought - maybe an 'expert' will pop up and join in

If it helps, in Dutch it's "etc." as well.

--
Els http://locusmeus.com/
Sonhos vem. Sonhos vão. O resto é imperfeito.
- Renato Russo -

In message <op.s1bcpqsfm9g4qz-wnt (AT) tbdata (DOT) com>, William Tasso
<SpamBlocked (AT) tbdata (DOT) com> writes

Writing in
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From the safety of the http://groups.google.com cafeteria
Chaddy2222 <rockradio2000 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com.au> said:

Wiliam...
Can you give us some sort of an example of what you are talking about.
If it is the situation where you use a range / group of full stops that
you are refering to..
Then yes. There is some times some slight disruption in the overall
flow of the text...

Consider this sentence: "The admin had several housekeeping chores to
attend to, checking backup logs etc. before he could leave for the
night."

The question is: how does a screen-reader interpret the period mark at
the end of "etc."? and would it the visitor be better served if the
period were omitted?

In HPR 3.04:

--------------

A slight pause.

'etc.' is recognised as a common abbreviation, so I hear:

"... The admin had several housekeeping chores to attend to, <slight
pause> checking backup logs et-cetera <slight pause> before he could
leave for the night. <pause>



--
Jake (jake (AT) gododdin (DOT) demon.co.uk -- just a 'spam trap' mail address)

MGW wrote:

On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 17:51:35 GMT, comments (AT) probertencyclopaedia (DOT) com
(Matt Probert) scrawled:


However, incorrect punctuation, such as in your example (it should be
&c. or etc but not etc.) will naturally cause a pause, as it does when
one reads the text.


Maybe this is one of those UK vs. US things, but over here etc. *is*
the correct punctuation, since etc. is the abbreviation for et cetera,
and abbreviations are noted by using a period at the end of them.

That's right. etc. is an abbreviation for et cetera, so a period
follows it.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex (AT) attglobal (DOT) net
==================

William Tasso wrote:

Writing in
news:alt.http://www.webmaster,alt.comp.blind-...-accessibility
From the safety of the http://groups.google.com cafeteria
Chaddy2222 <rockradio2000 (AT) yahoo (DOT) com.au> said:

Wiliam...
Can you give us some sort of an example of what you are talking about.
If it is the situation where you use a range / group of full stops that
you are refering to..
Then yes. There is some times some slight disruption in the overall
flow of the text...

Consider this sentence: "The admin had several housekeeping chores to
attend to, checking backup logs etc. before he could leave for the night."

The question is: how does a screen-reader interpret the period mark at the
end of "etc."? and would it the visitor be better served if the period
were omitted?
No. I don't think they would be really. When you think about it is kind

of like when you read the centence out loud but with a crappy U.S.A
sinthersizer voice, instead of a human voice reading the text.
(although if you thaught the u.S voice on Jaws For Windows V 5.0
soundded bad.... You should here the French version..... It sounds
shocking.....)
But getting back on topic.. yeah. it leaves a slight pause at the end
of etc and whereever there's a comma.....
--
Regards Chad. http://freewebdesign.cjb.cc

--
William Tasso

Save the drama
for your Mama.

On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 15:44:19 -0500, MGW <mgw1979 (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> posted
something that included:

On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 17:51:35 GMT, comments (AT) probertencyclopaedia (DOT) com
(Matt Probert) scrawled:

However, incorrect punctuation, such as in your example (it should be
&c. or etc but not etc.) will naturally cause a pause, as it does when
one reads the text.

Maybe this is one of those UK vs. US things, but over here etc. *is*
the correct punctuation, since etc. is the abbreviation for et cetera,
and abbreviations are noted by using a period at the end of them.

I've noted in books printed prior to, oh, maybe 1930, that there is a
tendency to use &c. instead of etc. (For the 1% here who don't know,
"et" is latin for "and".)

In the stuff since 1970, there are a lot of people who write ect.
instead of etc. Maybe they are referring to ectoplasm instead of "et
cetera".



--
If we're losing 40-130 species a day,
How come nobody can itemize them?
And why can't fruitflies be one of them?

On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 09:30:27 GMT, Paul Ding <lancastir (AT) paulding (DOT) net>
wrote:

On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 15:44:19 -0500, MGW <mgw1979 (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> posted
something that included:

On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 17:51:35 GMT, comments (AT) probertencyclopaedia (DOT) com
(Matt Probert) scrawled:

However, incorrect punctuation, such as in your example (it should be
&c. or etc but not etc.) will naturally cause a pause, as it does when
one reads the text.

Maybe this is one of those UK vs. US things, but over here etc. *is*
the correct punctuation, since etc. is the abbreviation for et cetera,
and abbreviations are noted by using a period at the end of them.

I've noted in books printed prior to, oh, maybe 1930, that there is a
tendency to use &c. instead of etc. (For the 1% here who don't know,
"et" is latin for "and".)

Indeed, some of us who still cling to the notion of correct English do
still use &c.

Matt


--
The Probert Encyclopaedia - Beyond Britannica
http://www.probertencyclopaedia.com