MSTC website

On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 10:29:09 +0000, jake <jake (AT) gododdin (DOT) demon.co.uk>
wrote:

In message <422ca21b.215506484 (AT) news1 (DOT) mm.com>, Steve Sundberg
deejayREMOVETHE (AT) CAPITALLETTERSmm (DOT) com> writes

Cascading style sheets can do many of the same things frames were
originally designed to do.

But not all, though. How, for example, do they load changeable content
into a 'scrolling div' pretending to be a frame?

By defining a scrollable div:

#update {
position: absolute;
top: 10px;
left: 10px;
height: 300px;
width: 150px;
text-align: left;
padding-left: 0px;
padding-right: 10px;
padding-top: 12px;
padding-bottom: 12px;
border-right: solid 1px;
border-color: #990000;
overflow: auto;
z-index: 2;
}

.... and placing content within that div.

jake wrote:

If you need 'frame's functionality, then you need ........... frames ;-)

There is no functionality provided by frames that can *only* be provided
by frames.

jake wrote:

In message <3964ggF5urk89U2 (AT) individual (DOT) net>, Harlan Messinger
hmessinger.removethis (AT) comcast (DOT) net> writes

David Dorward wrote:

Steve Sundberg wrote:

Frames are a no-no for accessibility. They also create search engine
optimization problems. Besides, frames are so "1998" and Netscape/IE
ver.3.0.

It is possible to work around those issues; but its so much work
that it
probably isn't worth the effort.


Particularly the effort needed to enable users to bookmark specific
pages.


'Favorites' --> 'Add to Favorites' --> (create in) --> OK

Most of us expect a bookmark to go to the page we bookmarked. But sure,
you're way is fine if every time you bookmark a page somewhere inside a
web site, you don't mind if the bookmark actually leads only to the
site's home page.

jake wrote:

Using frames is not inherently an accessibility problem.

Driving on the left side of the road is not inherently a safety problem.
It is a problem only if everyone else is driving on the right side of
the road.

So: using frames in an agent that supports frames is not inherently an
accessibility problem, but some accessibility solutions don't *support*
frames, so in reality it's still somewhat of an accessibility problem.

In message <398ju3F5uudbtU4 (AT) individual (DOT) net>, Harlan Messinger
<hmessinger.removethis (AT) comcast (DOT) net> writes

jake wrote:

Using frames is not inherently an accessibility problem.

Driving on the left side of the road is not inherently a safety
problem. It is a problem only if everyone else is driving on the right
side of the road.

So: using frames in an agent that supports frames is not inherently an
accessibility problem, but some accessibility solutions don't *support*
frames, so in reality it's still somewhat of an accessibility problem.

And what 'accesibility solutions' would they be, then?

As frames don't provide an accessibility problem to the visually
disabled and to those people that cannot use a mouse (to name but two
groups) I'd be interested in knowing what disability groups would have
problems.

Just interested.

regards
--
Jake

In message <398jpaF5uudbtU3 (AT) individual (DOT) net>, Harlan Messinger
<hmessinger.removethis (AT) comcast (DOT) net> writes

jake wrote:
In message <3964ggF5urk89U2 (AT) individual (DOT) net>, Harlan Messinger
hmessinger.removethis (AT) comcast (DOT) net> writes

David Dorward wrote:

Steve Sundberg wrote:

Frames are a no-no for accessibility. They also create search engine
optimization problems. Besides, frames are so "1998" and Netscape/IE
ver.3.0.

It is possible to work around those issues; but its so much work
that it
probably isn't worth the effort.


Particularly the effort needed to enable users to bookmark specific
pages.
'Favorites' --> 'Add to Favorites' --> (create in) --> OK

Most of us expect a bookmark to go to the page we bookmarked. But sure,
you're way is fine if every time you bookmark a page somewhere inside a
web site, you don't mind if the bookmark actually leads only to the
site's home page.

The same url, but with the appropriate (bookmarked) content displayed --
is it not?

regards.

--
Jake

In message <398jkqF5uudbtU2 (AT) individual (DOT) net>, Harlan Messinger
<hmessinger.removethis (AT) comcast (DOT) net> writes

jake wrote:

If you need 'frame's functionality, then you need ........... frames ;-)

There is no functionality provided by frames that can *only* be
provided by frames.

OK. I'll bite. How else would you duplicate the functionality of frames
-- without involving the server?

regards.

--
Jake

In message <422f071e.372444640 (AT) news1 (DOT) mm.com>, Steve Sundberg
<deejayREMOVETHE (AT) CAPITALLETTERSmm (DOT) com> writes

On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 10:29:09 +0000, jake <jake (AT) gododdin (DOT) demon.co.uk
wrote:

In message <422ca21b.215506484 (AT) news1 (DOT) mm.com>, Steve Sundberg
deejayREMOVETHE (AT) CAPITALLETTERSmm (DOT) com> writes

Cascading style sheets can do many of the same things frames were
originally designed to do.

But not all, though. How, for example, do they load changeable content
into a 'scrolling div' pretending to be a frame?

By defining a scrollable div:

#update {
position: absolute;
top: 10px;
left: 10px;
height: 300px;
width: 150px;
text-align: left;
padding-left: 0px;
padding-right: 10px;
padding-top: 12px;
padding-bottom: 12px;
border-right: solid 1px;
border-color: #990000;
overflow: auto;
z-index: 2;
}

... and placing content within that div.


OK, let's say you've set up your scrolling div.

Now. I want to see the contents of either:
aaa.htm, or
bbb.htm, or
ccc.htm

in that div, depending on whichever link I select from a list of links.

The code to effect that would be .... ?

(As in <a href="bbb.htm" target="maincontent">bbb</a> with frames.)

regards.

And it's got to be a client-side solution ;-)

--
Jake

In message <422f062c.372202531 (AT) news1 (DOT) mm.com>, Steve Sundberg
<deejayREMOVETHE (AT) CAPITALLETTERSmm (DOT) com> writes

On Wed, 9 Mar 2005 10:36:28 +0000, jake <jake (AT) gododdin (DOT) demon.co.uk
wrote:

In message <3964ggF5urk89U2 (AT) individual (DOT) net>, Harlan Messinger
hmessinger.removethis (AT) comcast (DOT) net> writes

Particularly the effort needed to enable users to bookmark specific pages.

'Favorites' --> 'Add to Favorites' --> (create in) --> OK

All that does is bookmark the parent page, not the target page.

It also bookmarks the context.

regards.

--
Jake

Gazing into my crystal ball I observed Harlan Messinger
<hmessinger.removethis (AT) comcast (DOT) net> writing in news:398jkqF5uudbtU2
@individual.net:

jake wrote:

If you need 'frame's functionality, then you need ........... frames
;-)

There is no functionality provided by frames that can *only* be
provided
by frames.

Actually, there is. The user can resize a frame. A scrolling div cannot
be resized. For example, http://www.scriptassist.com/sample.asp uses a
scrolling div, and http://www.scriptassist.com/online/index.asp which
uses frames (use login usenet password usenet).

This is a scriptwriters reference, and in the offline and online version
frames were used for this very reason. An author can resize the frames to
see more of the references page. The samples were done not using frames
because of search engines, bookmarking, etc. The samples page does let
the user know the "frames" are not resizeable.

As a side note, this was a b***h to reproduce.

--
Adrienne Boswell
http://www.cavalcade-of-coding.info
Please respond to the group so others can share