Interesting Question For Group:

My feeling is google right now is working behind the scenes trying to
find software filters that will make their guideline rules actually
enforcable. How close they are to this I don't know but I'll bet that's
what they're doing right now and since 11/16.

Here's an interesting question: If they were to totally succeed in lets'
say the next month or two and none of known seo ideas worked any longer
and they could actually enforce all of their guidline rules what would
you all do to get your sites ranked high at google?

It's a strong possibility that this indeed will happen very soon so it's
something to think about. My guess is when it does happen their server
will get a lot faster for awhile with at least half of the sites now
indexed totally gone from their database.

For me what I dread the most is having to actually exchange links with
real sites to get pr and backlinks. I much prefer memberlists, blog
comments, and guestbooks where I have a lot more control. To me that
would be the worst part of it. And who the hell can afford to buy 200
domain names with hosting to avoid that. I know I can't.

In article <402130DB.50E4 (AT) mail (DOT) com>, Sam says...

For me what I dread the most is having to actually exchange links with
real sites to get pr and backlinks. I much prefer memberlists, blog
comments, and guestbooks where I have a lot more control. To me that
would be the worst part of it. And who the hell can afford to buy 200
domain names with hosting to avoid that. I know I can't.

Isn't the goal of Google to provide results relevant to the user's
search criteria, not results that have the most paid-for backlinks?

All you're doing there, like many other methods of SEO, is attempting to
manipulate Google's results. That's the reason Google will constantly
change their system to stem abuse.

As far as I can see, no automated search engine like Google can ever be
free from manipulation. As long as they are setting criteria for listing
pages, somebody will always find a way to configure their site to match.

Google will be the perfect search engine as soon as relevant sites, with
decent information, show up under the correct search terms regardless of
how well they use their H1s and title tags. I personally can't think of
an effective way of achieving this that isn't open to abuse.

The inbound link text idea is a good one, but it's as easy to abuse as
meta tags were with the right resources.

--
Daniel Ruscoe
DualStone Web Design - http://www.DualStone.co.uk

Sam <. (AT) mail (DOT) com> wrote in news:402130DB.50E4 (AT) mail (DOT) com:

My feeling is google right now is working behind the scenes trying to
find software filters that will make their guideline rules actually
enforcable. How close they are to this I don't know but I'll bet
that's what they're doing right now and since 11/16.

Here's an interesting question: If they were to totally succeed in
lets' say the next month or two and none of known seo ideas worked any
longer and they could actually enforce all of their guidline rules
what would you all do to get your sites ranked high at google?

I've already done it, bit the bullet and went out and signed up with
every themed list I could find that reflected a measure of taste and
later even added some questionable ones. I am a recovering Googleholic
and have to swear everyday to not see if my two word golden search term
has me restored to pre 11/16. That date was the equivalent of waking up
in the gutter with two days missing, my wallet gone and the mother of
all hangovers. Don't think filters; instead think randomness. Choosing
the top ten SERP on that basis from say, the top 400 of what would have
been the pre 11/16 static order and then continue to repeat the
selection process periodically and you make your Google truly SEO proof
*and* you serve up a continually varying search result which I'm
guessing would be very appealing to users. I don't think the users would
see any decrease in the search relevance, not with the huge data base of
sites. I agree, it's ugly going out there and soliciting back links one
at a time, BUT, it's wonderful to not give a damn if the great Googlegod
might disapprove of this or that site's rep...truly a liberating
feeling. Plus you are free to do whatever you want with your site and
thumb your nose at Google PC. The other terrific source of traffic is to
get a link swap with a site bloated with Zeus derived links. They
generate lots of traffic. A hit from Google only indicated the searcher
knew enough to enter a particular search term. Getting hits from a link
on a quality site closely related to your own and you know a lot more
about the searcher's preferences. Oddly enough I had set out to create
this link traffic source before 11/16 as one of the many forum advised
SEO methods. I launched my own blog and am in the process of seeing
what that can yield...again not to try and trick Google but simply to
generate traffic. As a footnote, I've never sold a thing on the net.
For original art I don't think it's in the cards but it was a hoot
seeing my work online and now being seen by near 5000 unique visitors a
month. The best I ever did relying on Google mostly was 1200. So it
won't be the end of the world. Repeat after me, "I will on this day
CHOOSE NOT to check my keyword phrase SERP on Goo...." Regards and
thanks for your many and interesting posts re:Googlemania, Nick

"Sam" <. (AT) mail (DOT) com> wrote

Here's an interesting question: If they were to totally succeed in lets'
say the next month or two and none of known seo ideas worked any longer
and they could actually enforce all of their guidline rules what would
you all do to get your sites ranked high at google?

The best way to get a topped rank site in any modern search engine is to
build a site worthy of top ranking. Easier said than done, but it will
provide more longevity in the long run. Having only improved in this most
recent update, I don't think that I would do anything different than I have
been. Quality content. Quality inbound links (I like the .edu ones when I
can get 'em), and quality outbound links to sites that reinforce or
suplement the content of the page

For me what I dread the most is having to actually exchange links with
real sites to get pr and backlinks. I much prefer memberlists, blog
comments, and guestbooks where I have a lot more control. To me that
would be the worst part of it. And who the hell can afford to buy 200
domain names with hosting to avoid that. I know I can't.

Short cuts. Build a quality site, and after you reach a certain threshold
(i.e. good enough rankings to get found), others will link to you
spontaneously.


--
John Merrell
Gateway Farm Alpacas
www.gateway-alpacas.com

Gateway Farm Alpacas wrote:

"Sam" <. (AT) mail (DOT) com> wrote



Here's an interesting question: If they were to totally succeed in lets'
say the next month or two and none of known seo ideas worked any longer
and they could actually enforce all of their guidline rules what would
you all do to get your sites ranked high at google?


The best way to get a topped rank site in any modern search engine is to
build a site worthy of top ranking. Easier said than done, but it will
provide more longevity in the long run. Having only improved in this most
recent update, I don't think that I would do anything different than I have
been. Quality content. Quality inbound links (I like the .edu ones when I
can get 'em), and quality outbound links to sites that reinforce or
suplement the content of the page


For me what I dread the most is having to actually exchange links with
real sites to get pr and backlinks. I much prefer memberlists, blog
comments, and guestbooks where I have a lot more control. To me that
would be the worst part of it. And who the hell can afford to buy 200
domain names with hosting to avoid that. I know I can't.

Short cuts. Build a quality site, and after you reach a certain threshold
(i.e. good enough rankings to get found), others will link to you
spontaneously.

--
John Merrell
Yeah right and your site will ne out in no where mans' land.

"Sam" <. (AT) mail (DOT) com> wrote



Yeah right and your site will ne out in no where mans' land.

Sam's the man! Thoughtful, erudite, full of wisdom, knows quality before he
sees it, and never one to place expedience before his deep sense of ethical
conduct. It is because of people like Sam that we have such fulfilling
Internet experiences, and spam free in-boxes.

It is interesting to watch those that occasionally post their need to
completely redesign their sites in order to recover from the changing
criteria of the SE's. Sites that are worthy of top rankings tend to maintain
their top rankings. Sites that play to the algo of the moment do not long
survive.

Regards,


--
John Merrell
Gateway Farm Alpacas
www.gateway-alpacas.com

I cant see the art of SEO dying out in the immediate future nor there
being any conflict of interest between Google and the SEO community,
both have the same objectives - providing the write content to the
write end user. After all most of us aren't really interested in
traffic unless the visitor actually wants to purchase our goods or
service or visit our web site.

I do appreciate that their are some out there who would go to any ends
to get that next rank higher but personally in most cases i think they
are missing some of the point of it all.

What is sad though in the recent changes in ranking, is that Google
seems to be favouring large sites over small. One of the great
strengths of the Internet used to be as an even playing field, the
fact that small business could be ranked alongside large etc etc. The
problem now, is that the search results are dominated by large, more
corporate sites, with many pages and therefore many links. This is in
my opinion not a good measure of the worth of a web site.

My experience is that the end user actually wants to find the person
selling the product and not go to a directory or other portal to be
able to find that end user, its just made the chain that bit longer.
I suspect that if this trend continues the significance of Google may
drop and more people might start using smaller search engines that
give a more interesting and less predictable set of results!

Martyn Fewtrell
www.networkclub.co.uk

"Martyn Fewtrell" <mfewtrell (AT) networkclub (DOT) co.uk> wrote

What is sad though in the recent changes in ranking, is that Google
seems to be favouring large sites over small. One of the great
strengths of the Internet used to be as an even playing field, the
fact that small business could be ranked alongside large etc etc. The
problem now, is that the search results are dominated by large, more
corporate sites, with many pages and therefore many links. This is in
my opinion not a good measure of the worth of a web site.

I don't know if I would say Google is favoring big business sites over other
sites... but I would say that their current ranking system is favorable to
big business sites

IE: right now everybody seems to be talking about the Atkins Diet... if you
are doing a page about it so you can sell stuff on the net about it, it
would be hard to rank higher than the Atkins website itself... largely
because of the amount of inbound links it has (all the manufacturers,
retailers and restaurants are all putting the Atkins logo on their site and
offering a link to it)

My experience is that the end user actually wants to find the person
selling the product and not go to a directory or other portal to be
able to find that end user, its just made the chain that bit longer.

This is happening because people have effectivly figured out how to "beat"
the Google system... which is probably partly why they are still tinkering
with it. I agree: seems everything you search for on the net nowadays just
points to another directory or portal about what you are searching for and a
bunch of other (sometimes related) items

I suspect that if this trend continues the significance of Google may
drop and more people might start using smaller search engines that
give a more interesting and less predictable set of results!

This has happened in the past, and will probably happen again.

The problem is that right now Google is the #1 search engine, and they will
stay there until eventually somebody comes along to unseat them... but for
now, even though they are giving bad/non-relevant results, there isn't even
anybody on the horizon who looks like they could take over top spot

So for now, running around and saying "I'm #1 in Excite and AltaVista!"
doesn't mean much if Google gets 75 to 100 times as many users as they do

On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 20:16:39 +0000 (UTC), Daniel Ruscoe
<daniel.ruscoe (AT) dualstone (DOT) co.uk> wrote:

In article <402130DB.50E4 (AT) mail (DOT) com>, Sam says...

For me what I dread the most is having to actually exchange links with
real sites to get pr and backlinks. I much prefer memberlists, blog
comments, and guestbooks where I have a lot more control. To me that
would be the worst part of it. And who the hell can afford to buy 200
domain names with hosting to avoid that. I know I can't.

Isn't the goal of Google to provide results relevant to the user's
search criteria, not results that have the most paid-for backlinks?

All you're doing there, like many other methods of SEO, is attempting to
manipulate Google's results. That's the reason Google will constantly
change their system to stem abuse.

but in the courts its being abused - is it American blinds wanting to
completely control what is returned for a search on their terms?

(is it blinds or wallpaper? Something homey)

As far as I can see, no automated search engine like Google can ever be
free from manipulation. As long as they are setting criteria for listing
pages, somebody will always find a way to configure their site to match.

Google's on a slide cos of the paying for ads I reckon.
It ceases to be a pure search engine once money rears its evil head.

I'm looking for an alternative to promote to my site visitors.

Google will be the perfect search engine as soon as relevant sites, with
decent information, show up under the correct search terms regardless of
how well they use their H1s and title tags. I personally can't think of
an effective way of achieving this that isn't open to abuse.

The inbound link text idea is a good one, but it's as easy to abuse as
meta tags were with the right resources.

--
More freebies than you can shake a stick at
http://www.freebiesnetwork.co.uk/just_added.htm