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Google is not giving people the proper results
Search Engine Optimization Discussion about SEO/Search Engine Optimization (alt.internet.search-engines)
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#1
 
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Google is not giving people the proper results -
07-06-2003
, 06:31 AM
#2
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Firstly, I apologise if this in a sweeping statements and acknowledge that I could be wrong. However, over the last several months I've become increasingly frustrated that Google is serving up poor results instead of more informational pages ( because the other pages have more inbound links?) I base this on my own personal web site because this is the area I have knowledge in, and the area I concentrate on when analysing Google's results. However, there is no reason why the same doesn't apply to most search results. My site does extremely well on many searches, but there are many other searches where my site has thousands of examples of a keyword or phrase but comes virtually nowhere in the results because big sites with big PR just mention the phrase a few times in an article. A perfect example of this is "washing machine" admittedly this is a very vague word to search on but it is the number one (related to my theme) phrase that people search for. Why, when I have a well structured site, that must have the words "washing machine" thousands of times (in headers and titles and file names) and on every single page it is littered with washing machine information, plus, the entire theme is washing machines does Google think any of them are less relevant than, "Girl rescued from washing machine" which is the number one page from the San Francisco Examiner and the odd Epinions "amateur" washing machine review? Surely the only reason is that it that these sites are massive, and have lots of inbound links? Yet not of them are remotely themes to washing machines and only have virtually insignificant references to them. This contrasts with "washing machine reviews" where I'm number 3 and 4. There are other examples, and please don't dismiss this as a purely personal concern, it's the big picture I'm talking of here as much as my own site. Is Google attaching so much importance to big (popular) sites and PR that it's only a matter of time before another SE comes up and gives proper weight to informative articles instead of lazily relying on what seems like an "if the site has lots of links to it, it must be the best" attitude which is fatally flawed? -- We've all got one - www.washerhelp.com [remove mymask_ to email] |
#3
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Firstly, I apologise if this in a sweeping statements and acknowledge that I could be wrong. However, over the last several months I've become increasingly frustrated that Google is serving up poor results instead of more informational pages ( because the other pages have more inbound links?) I base this on my own personal web site because this is the area I have knowledge in, and the area I concentrate on when analysing Google's results. However, there is no reason why the same doesn't apply to most search results. My site does extremely well on many searches, but there are many other searches where my site has thousands of examples of a keyword or phrase but comes virtually nowhere in the results because big sites with big PR just mention the phrase a few times in an article. A perfect example of this is "washing machine" admittedly this is a very vague word to search on but it is the number one (related to my theme) phrase that people search for. Why, when I have a well structured site, that must have the words "washing machine" thousands of times (in headers and titles and file names) and on every single page it is littered with washing machine information, plus, the entire theme is washing machines does Google think any of them are less relevant than, "Girl rescued from washing machine" which is the number one page from the San Francisco Examiner and the odd Epinions "amateur" washing machine review? Surely the only reason is that it that these sites are massive, and have lots of inbound links? Yet not of them are remotely themes to washing machines and only have virtually insignificant references to them. This contrasts with "washing machine reviews" where I'm number 3 and 4. There are other examples, and please don't dismiss this as a purely personal concern, it's the big picture I'm talking of here as much as my own site. Is Google attaching so much importance to big (popular) sites and PR that it's only a matter of time before another SE comes up and gives proper weight to informative articles instead of lazily relying on what seems like an "if the site has lots of links to it, it must be the best" attitude which is fatally flawed? -- We've all got one - www.washerhelp.com [remove mymask_ to email] |
#4
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I totally agree with you and was indeed wondering if others are finding the same. Friends of mine are certainly saying that the quality of results is definitley diminishing and I am finding it alot harder to optimise sites that are not massive with high PR and loads of inbound links even though they are relevant with something useful to offer. I do think it is a sorry state of affairs as now the only way I can see of promoting these 'smaller' sites is to make the sites far larger by generating more pages of content...even though it is not neccessary and all that will lead to is overloading of the web. Phil |
paste it in a database program like excel and delete the numbers
column since it is in a table.
Tim
#5
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› Google calculates your search engine ranking by something like › › Page Relevancy for search term x Link popularity › › In theory if you have a high relevancy but a small link popularity you can › achieve the same score as a corporate company with a low relevancy and a › high link popularity and in theory compete on a level field. › › However as we know all this is relative and some sites get such a huge link › popularity that you just cant compete. › › This is why it so important to correctly target your site in the first › instance and choose the correct keywords. › › With respect to another search engine coming along Teoma measures the › relevancy of the link to the page and as a result will avoid this situation › occurring (to a certain extent) - the link only counts if it is from a › similar themed site. I'm not really sure this offers a better alternative › but I guess we will see with time. |
I believe Google is seriously wrong in serving up sites with high
inbound links over ones with much greater content, because it makes
the totally flawed assumption that because something is popular it
must be good. More importantly because it allows many totally
irrelevant sites, who mention a topic just a few times to completely
obscure a totally dedicated site with hundreds of legitimate uses of
the keywords and dozens of pages crammed with useful information.
The idea that if few people have linked to a site it must be rubbish
is lazy. It's saying, although we can see this page mentions the word
40 times and has the word in headers and pictures, we (Google) can't
tell if this site has a lot of information about the subject our
customers are looking for, so as it has very few inbound links it must
be no good. Conversely, we (Google) can't tell if this is an
informative page and is what our customer is looking for but this page
(on another site) mentions the word 3 times and has lots of people
linking to it so it must be what our customer wants.
I don't believe page rank or inbound links can ever be legitimately
used to say one source of information is better than another. The only
way this should be so, is if Google cannot tell which is best, so it
relinquishes the decision to the ones who have promoted more
aggressively or who have gained many inbound links because they have
something else that is "popular".
When people are searching the Internet, they want to see pages that
are relevant to the topic. They aren't searching for a brief mention
of a topic by the most popular sites. They don't give a damn if no
one else in the world has ever read the page yet, or no one on the
Internet has linked to it - they want the information.
The idea that the most informative site on the Internet on a given
subject, can be totally lost and never seen by people wanting its
information unless the writer of the subject spends hundreds of hours
promoting their topic is ludicrous. OK, in a totally commercial
situation, it's fair that those that promote get noticed, but the
Internet is supposed to be the greatest library mankind has ever had
access to.
--
We've all got one - www.washerhelp.com
[remove mymask_ to email]
#6
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› The idea that if few people have linked to a site it must be rubbish › is lazy. It's saying, although we can see this page mentions the word › 40 times and has the word in headers and pictures, we (Google) can't › tell if this site has a lot of information about the subject our › customers are looking for, so as it has very few inbound links it must › be no good. Conversely, we (Google) can't tell if this is an › informative page and is what our customer is looking for but this page › (on another site) mentions the word 3 times and has lots of people › linking to it so it must be what our customer wants. |
weighing up its results and deciding what to give its customers.
Clearly if ther aren't mentions of the topic by so-called popular
sites then Google works as normal and serves up the good pages. The
problem arises when Google appears to give so much weight to big
popular sites that it bizarrely discards the blatantly obvious
superior pages.
--
We've all got one - www.washerhelp.com
[remove mymask_ to email]
#7
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catherine yronwode <cat (AT) luckymojo (DOT) com> wrote in news:3F09CEC9.26FF94F4 @luckymojo.com: But like i said -- folks just shot me down and tried to convince me that the new results were great. I agreed with you! Though someone did make a good point that on some types of page it is difficult to mention the keywords within the content - 'short stories' I think was mentioned, where an actual short story is unlikely to contain those words. |
that the specific problem above is a difficult one to pin on Google. The
example - and I appreciate that it's unfair to get into too much detail when
working from the specific to the general - is at the divide between content
and form. Google doesn't handle form well but does handle content. A search
for a story in which "Toad buys a motor car" soon turns up a list of refs to
"Wind in the Willows" as does "stories by Kenneth Grahame".
Again, I know I'm working within the confines of the example and there may
be better ones but who would want to search for "short stories"? Short
stories by Saki" works well enough - the first 100+ links are all relevant -
and I would have expected anyone using a search to have some further
knowledge of what it was that they sought.
Perhaps it's time for
<META NAME="form" CONTENT="Short story">
--
PeterMcC
If you feel that any of the above is incorrect,
inappropriate or offensive in any way,
please ignore it and accept my apologies.
#8
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Victoria Clare wrote: catherine yronwode <cat (AT) luckymojo (DOT) com> wrote in news:3F09CEC9.26FF94F4 @luckymojo.com: But like i said -- folks just shot me down and tried to convince me that the new results were great. I agreed with you! Though someone did make a good point that on some types of page it is difficult to mention the keywords within the content - 'short stories' I think was mentioned, where an actual short story is unlikely to contain those words. Whilst I'd echo the sentiments of a lot of the posts in this thread, I think that the specific problem above is a difficult one to pin on Google. The example - and I appreciate that it's unfair to get into too much detail when working from the specific to the general - is at the divide between content and form. Google doesn't handle form well but does handle content. A search for a story in which "Toad buys a motor car" soon turns up a list of refs to "Wind in the Willows" as does "stories by Kenneth Grahame". Again, I know I'm working within the confines of the example and there may be better ones but who would want to search for "short stories"? Short stories by Saki" works well enough - the first 100+ links are all relevant - and I would have expected anyone using a search to have some further knowledge of what it was that they sought. |
otherwise. I tried a search for 'fanfic' and got a lot of discontinued
sites - though that may just reflect the pace of life in that world.
Plurals are interesting though. What to do if you offer the worlds best
widget, but all around are searching for multiple widgets, even if they
only want to buy one?
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Perhaps it's time for META NAME="form" CONTENT="Short story" Could be! |
--
Clare Associates Ltd
http://www.clareassoc.co.uk/
01822 835802
--
#9
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catherine yronwode <cat (AT) luckymojo (DOT) com> wrote in news:3F09CEC9.26FF94F4 @luckymojo.com: But like i said -- folks just shot me down and tried to convince me that the new results were great. I agreed with you! Though someone did make a good point that on some types of page it is difficult to mention the keywords within the content - 'short stories' I think was mentioned, where an actual short story is unlikely to contain those words. I don't think Google is doing as badly as all that, but there do seem to be some odd results sometimes - results that change even as you reload the page. This does confuse people - I have seen people posting Google searches as suggestions for info, then being confused when people click through on the link and complain that they can't see what the OP is talking about. I would also like the PageRank bar to work reliably again. |
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But there seems to be no good solution yet. Emphasise pagerank, and you penalise small good specialist sites. Emphasise page content, and spamified pages leap into the top spots. |
Whooo-hoooo! Ahem, I mean, of course, how dreadful, er........
BB
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Emphasise the ODP and new sites can't get listed fast enough: emphasize Yahoo, and those that can't pay get penalised. I think there is still a way to go here, but I don't have the skills to say in which direction. Victoria -- Clare Associates Ltd http://www.clareassoc.co.uk/ 01822 835802 |
There is only one war, and it's not the rich against the poor,
the blacks against the whites, the Federation against the Borg,
or the Democrats versus the Republicans. It's those of us who
aren't complete idiots against those of us who are.
#10
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On Sun, 06 Jul 2003 10:31:49 GMT, xyZed xyzed (AT) mymask_blueyonder (DOT) co.uk> wrote: Is Google attaching so much importance to big (popular) sites and PR that it's only a matter of time before another SE comes up and gives proper weight to informative articles instead of lazily relying on what seems like an "if the site has lots of links to it, it must be the best" attitude which is fatally flawed? For those searching for washing machine information on Googles groups click this link www.washerhelp.com :-)) Hi, The alternative is to base the results on what's only on the page and we all know what that used to be like!! I want to rank well for the phrase "washing machine" so I go to Overtures search tool and get this info- 27584 washing machine 4564 repair washing machine 2228 washing machine part 1984 portable washing machine 1744 whirlpool washing machine 1393 washing machine review 1303 front load washing machine 1235 maytag washing machine 1172 washing machine rating 1126 front loading washing machine 1043 kenmore washing machine 974 commercial washing machine 836 best washing machine 767 child in machine washing 756 consumer report washing machine 637 baby in machine washing 598 washing machine uk 590 history machine washing 580 bosch washing machine 574 ge washing machine 517 hotpoint washing machine 505 lg washing machine 496 antique machine washing 463 washing machine comparison 428 industrial machine washing 405 washing machine problem 394 fix a washing machine 394 washing machine troubleshooting 367 coin operated washing machine 364 repair a kenmore washing machine 361 frigidaire washing machine 351 roper washing machine 344 whirlpool washing machine part 335 miele washing machine 329 washing machine picture 298 discount washing machine 279 kenmore washing machine part 277 girl in machine washing 277 whirlpool washing machine repair 271 fixing washing machine 268 cheap washing machine 267 admiral washing machine 266 baby machine washing 264 compact washing machine 253 compare washing machine 252 wringer washing machine 242 washing machine drain 239 hoover machine washing 237 washing machine spare part 233 child machine washing 223 asko washing machine 214 general electric washing machine 203 washing machine hose 201 sears washing machine 192 amana washing machine 189 in machine toddler washing 189 used machine washing 186 washing machine diagram 184 invention machine washing 176 machine small washing 166 bottle machine washing 157 washing machine leak 156 indesit washing machine 153 dryer machine washing 150 machine old washing 144 front loader washing machine 142 fisher paykel washing machine 142 machine washing zanussi 140 calypso washing machine 139 maytag washing machine part 138 ge washing machine part 135 machine manufacturer washing 134 machine mini washing 133 washing machine manual 131 washing machine belt 131 neptune washing machine 131 washing machine spare 129 washing machine and dryers 128 child in machine mother put washing 126 machine odor washing 125 ge washing machine repair 124 machine pan washing 123 gibson washing machine 122 inventor machine washing 122 do it yourself washing machine repair 121 washing machine for sale 120 maytag washing machine repair 115 haier washing machine 113 clothes washing machine 113 washing machine repair manual 113 washing machine rental 110 machine motor washing 109 ariston washing machine 109 machine price washing 108 plumbing washing machine 107 girl machine washing 106 child in machine put washing woman 105 repairing washing machine 104 aeg washing machine 103 machine servis washing I then strip out all the numbers (easy to do) then add it to a html page with a little editing and we have this- h1>Washing Machine</h1 p>washing machine repair washing machine washing machine part portable washing machine whirlpool washing machine washing machine review.</p p>front load washing machine maytag washing machine washing machine rating front loading washing machine kenmore washing machine commercial washing machine.</p p>best washing machine child in machine washing consumer report washing machine baby in machine washing washing machine uk history machine washing.</p p>bosch washing machine ge washing machine hotpoint washing machine lg washing machine antique machine washing washing machine comparison industrial machine washing washing machine problem fix a washing machine.</p p>washing machine troubleshooting coin operated washing machine repair a kenmore washing machine frigidaire washing machine roper washing machine.</p p>whirlpool washing machine part miele washing machine washing machine picture discount washing machine kenmore washing machine part girl in machine washing.</p p>whirlpool washing machine repair fixing washing machine cheap washing machine admiral washing machine baby machine washing compact washing machine compare washing machine wringer washing machine washing machine.</p p>drain hoover machine washing washing machine spare part child machine washing asko washing machine general electric washing machine washing machine hose.</p p>sears washing machine amana washing machine in machine toddler washing used machine washing washing machine diagram invention machine washing machine small washing bottle machine washing washing machine leak indesit washing machine dryer.</p p>machine washing machine old washing front loader washing machine fisher paykel washing machine machine washing zanussi calypso washing machine maytag washing machine part.</p p>ge washing machine part machine manufacturer washing machine mini washing washing machine manual washing machine belt neptune washing machine washing machine spare washing machine and dryers child in machine.</p p>mother put washing machine odor washing ge washing machine repair machine pan washing gibson washing machine inventor machine washing do it yourself washing machine repair washing machine for sale maytag washing machine repair.</p p>haier washing machine clothes washing machine washing machine repair manual washing machine rental machine motor washing ariston washing machine.</p p>machine price washing plumbing washing machine girl machine washing child in machine put washing woman repairing washing machine aeg washing machine machine servis washing.</p This can then be put at the bottom of a page to rank well. This took me about 5 minutes (including writing this post) using a text editor (Notespad which is freeware), a spreadsheet (Excel) to remove the numbers column) and one keyword search on Overtures search tool http://inventory.overture.com/d/sear...ry/suggestion/ . I think the PR system is much better as it takes a lot of hard work and time to manipulate it. Check Google newsgroup search in a couple of days for Washing Machine and I wouldn't be surprised to find this post as number one as it relies on the text only (hence sticking your URL at the top). Let us know if you get any hits from this :-)) David _ Adult Lingerie UK http://www.adultlingerieuk.com |
I believe Google mentions that its algorithm takes into account words
that help make complete sentences more valuable. For example: Google
could look for a keyword then look at the uses of subjects, verbs
objects, and prepositions. I saw Google's founders on CNBC a few days
ago. The founders mentioned that while Google is moving toward a more
"intelligent" way of analyzing the content of web pages, the challenge
of using robots to comprehend the content proves to be extremely
difficult.
In other words...use complete sentences that are search engine friendly.
Even if you have a high page rank and thousands of visitors, it doesn't
matter unless your content is useful to visitors. If you have the time,
develop different pages that focus on individual search terms.
- First, use the same content minus your keywords for each page.
- Next, change the content for each page slightly, so that each page
makes sense.
That should work.
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