Critisizing other SEO's

I have a directory site and allow people
to submit their sites to it,
I give them a quick check over and if they are
blatantly abusing the google guidelines I email them
a link to the guidelines and tell them that is why I
won't include them.
This inevitably leads to them emailing back saying their
site was done by a 3rd party and wanting to know what
the 3rd party are doing which could cause problems.
I usually tell them just to read the guidelines and discuss
things with the SEO's.
More and more often though they email me back wanting
to know more.
Would it be ethical to tell them the tricks the SEO's are pulling
or should I just keep out of things?
What would you do?

On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 16:54:42 +0000 (UTC), "T.J." <no1 (AT) home (DOT) invalid>
wrote:

I have a directory site and allow people
to submit their sites to it,
I give them a quick check over and if they are
blatantly abusing the google guidelines I email them
a link to the guidelines and tell them that is why I
won't include them.
This inevitably leads to them emailing back saying their
site was done by a 3rd party and wanting to know what
the 3rd party are doing which could cause problems.
I usually tell them just to read the guidelines and discuss
things with the SEO's.
More and more often though they email me back wanting
to know more.
Would it be ethical to tell them the tricks the SEO's are pulling
or should I just keep out of things?
What would you do?

Keep well out of it.

BB
http://www.crystal-liaison.com/ kruse (AT) crystal-liaison (DOT) com
Home of gifts so shiny!

"T.J." <no1 (AT) home (DOT) invalid> wrote

I have a directory site and allow people
to submit their sites to it,
I give them a quick check over and if they are
blatantly abusing the google guidelines I email them
a link to the guidelines and tell them that is why I
won't include them.
This inevitably leads to them emailing back saying their
site was done by a 3rd party and wanting to know what
the 3rd party are doing which could cause problems.
I usually tell them just to read the guidelines and discuss
things with the SEO's.
More and more often though they email me back wanting
to know more.
Would it be ethical to tell them the tricks the SEO's are pulling
or should I just keep out of things?
What would you do?

Spill you guts for a price! :-) Actually, you are already helping them out
enough for free. If they want more I see no reason that is unethical to tell
them what is wrong. It is up to you. But you shouldn't be doing SEO for free
to loads of strangers, helping them is good, but doing more is
work(IMHO).:-)

Stacey
--
Massage Therapy - http://massage-therapy-101.net
Valentine Gifts-
http://allgiftshop.net/occasion-gift...-day-gifts.htm
Flowers- http://allgiftshop.net/occasion-gift...ts-flowers.htm

"Jill L." <TotallyMunged (AT) TooManyUsenetEmailHarvesters (DOT) com> wrote

On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 18:21:56 +0100, "Stacey"
Remove-the-Y-stacey (AT) staceyssimplestuff (DOT) com> wrote:

"T.J." <no1 (AT) home (DOT) invalid> wrote in message
news:dpm7ci$cvo$1 (AT) nwrdmz01 (DOT) dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
I have a directory site and allow people
to submit their sites to it,
I give them a quick check over and if they are
blatantly abusing the google guidelines I email them
a link to the guidelines and tell them that is why I
won't include them.
This inevitably leads to them emailing back saying their
site was done by a 3rd party and wanting to know what
the 3rd party are doing which could cause problems.
I usually tell them just to read the guidelines and discuss
things with the SEO's.
More and more often though they email me back wanting
to know more.
Would it be ethical to tell them the tricks the SEO's are pulling
or should I just keep out of things?
What would you do?

Spill you guts for a price! :-) Actually, you are already helping them out
enough for free. If they want more I see no reason that is unethical to
tell
them what is wrong. It is up to you.

But you shouldn't be doing SEO for free
to loads of strangers,

So you're basically telling him to turn away potential customers?

Am I? Don't think so! I told him don't do it for free. Please read before
going on a rampage! Also I SAID...."If they want more I see no reason that
is unethical to tell
them what is wrong. It is up to you. "

Especially a customer who is primed, and ready to listen to your sales
pitch? I dont' understand

That is just it you don't understand!

why you would recommend he turn away
perfectly qualified sales leads. Most people in the business world
would call that insanity. This is a perfect opportunity for him to
convert visitors to cash customers. He would be nuts *not* to do it,
IMO.

Yeah, he already gave them advice why do it for free. Plain and simple.
Everyone has an opinion.

Would you withhold info to a potential rag rug customer because you
thought they might go elsewhere to buy it? Or because it was "too
much work" to get a sale? That doesnt make any business sense
either, IMO.

You are right it doesn't make sense. But you don't sell rag rugs do you.:-)
He said he already stated to them information. He also doesn't sell SEO from
his directory AND people become leaches for more info if it is given all the
time for free. I know from experience! I don't teach people how to make rag
rugs, I sell them! I want to get them to buy not all the info to where they
don't want to buy one!

The only caveat I can see that TJ needs to be wary of, is:

snip

may not be the best for a long term SEO business, if SEO is where he
wants to make his living.

Again, TJ does not do SEO for a living. He was just helping out. TJ would
understand what I said and KNOW I meant he should be getting money by doing
it professionally!

<snip>

just another 2 cents from the peanut gallery,

Maybe you should have gone for the nickel!

Stacey

Jill L. <TotallyMunged (AT) TooManyUsenetEmailHarvesters (DOT) com> wrote:

On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 18:21:56 +0100, "Stacey"
Remove-the-Y-stacey (AT) staceyssimplestuff (DOT) com> wrote:

"T.J." <no1 (AT) home (DOT) invalid> wrote in message
news:dpm7ci$cvo$1 (AT) nwrdmz01 (DOT) dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
I have a directory site and allow people
to submit their sites to it,
I give them a quick check over and if they are
blatantly abusing the google guidelines I email them
a link to the guidelines and tell them that is why I
won't include them.
This inevitably leads to them emailing back saying their
site was done by a 3rd party and wanting to know what
the 3rd party are doing which could cause problems.
I usually tell them just to read the guidelines and discuss
things with the SEO's.
More and more often though they email me back wanting
to know more.
Would it be ethical to tell them the tricks the SEO's are pulling
or should I just keep out of things?
What would you do?

Spill you guts for a price! :-) Actually, you are already helping them
out enough for free. If they want more I see no reason that is
unethical to tell them what is wrong. It is up to you.

But you shouldn't be doing SEO for free
to loads of strangers,

So you're basically telling him to turn away potential customers?

No, she tells that work shouldn't be done for nothing.

Especially a customer who is primed, and ready to listen to your sales
pitch?

Doing things for free is not a sales pitch. Nor is giving discounts for
that matter. Both cause expectations, and the customer often insists
that his are met.

I dont' understand why you would recommend he turn away
perfectly qualified sales leads.

Someone using you because you do something for free has nothing to do
with selling something.

Most people in the business world
would call that insanity.

Doing things for free (or discounts for that matter)? Yes, true
insanity. It's very simple: you do work, how much is that worth? And are
you good at it? Then ask more.

This is a perfect opportunity for him to
convert visitors to cash customers. He would be nuts *not* to do it,
IMO.

IMNSHO he is nuts if he does it: if wastes time on "customers" that are
in for the free ride. How many of those "customers" are ever going to be
customers? And how much time does it take to get one paying customer?

Would you withhold info to a potential rag rug customer because you
thought they might go elsewhere to buy it? Or because it was "too
much work" to get a sale? That doesnt make any business sense
either, IMO.

If there is already business, it's not a problem do give some free
advice now and then, since that creates goodwill and even free
advertising. But Stacey is not going to give everybody a free rug, and
then ask, uhm, hey, if you want another one, I sell them too, you know?

The only caveat I can see that TJ needs to be wary of, is:

He better make sure his SEO chops will rank the site he has critiqued
(or rejected from his directory) higher than they currently are. If
he were to take that site on as a customer & and lower their current
ranking, he might have some explaining to do and some SEO egg to
remove.

Sometimes a drop can be expected, especially if the timing is a bit bad,
and a lot of tweaking is required. It can take some time for a site to
catch up.

I suspect most website owners have little to no sense of
whitehat vs. grayhat vs. blackhat and lowering their rank in the SERPS
may not be the best for a long term SEO business, if SEO is where he
wants to make his living.

On the other side of that caveat, he could just as easily cherry pick
submitted sites that have poor current SERPS and make himself look
like quite the SEO whiz. Really it all just depends on the
current rank of the site he is critiquing, how competitive the
keywords are, and TJ's SEO skill level and confidence.

Yup, and by asking a good amount of money for his services, he's showing
that he means business, that it's serious, and he has confidence.

--
John Perl SEO tools: http://johnbokma.com/perl/
or have them custom made
Experienced (web) developer: http://castleamber.com/

"Jill L." <TotallyMunged (AT) TooManyUsenetEmailHarvesters (DOT) com> wrote

On Fri, 06 Jan 2006 17:51:43 GMT, Jill L.
TotallyMunged (AT) TooManyUsenetEmai...ters (DOT) com> wrote:

Spill you guts for a price! :-) Actually, you are already helping them
out
enough for free. If they want more I see no reason that is unethical to
tell
them what is wrong. It is up to you.

But you shouldn't be doing SEO for free
to loads of strangers,

Stacy


So you're basically telling him to turn away potential customers?
Especially a customer who is primed, and ready to listen to your sales
pitch? I dont' understand why you would recommend he turn away
perfectly qualified sales leads. Most people in the business world
would call that insanity. This is a perfect opportunity for him to
convert visitors to cash customers. He would be nuts *not* to do it,
IMO.

Would you withhold info to a potential rag rug customer because you
thought they might go elsewhere to buy it? Or because it was "too
much work" to get a sale? That doesnt make any business sense
either, IMO.

The only caveat I can see that TJ needs to be wary of, is:

He better make sure his SEO chops will rank the site he has critiqued
(or rejected from his directory) higher than they currently are. If
he were to take that site on as a customer & and lower their current
ranking, he might have some explaining to do and some SEO egg to
remove. I suspect most website owners have little to no sense of
whitehat vs. grayhat vs. blackhat and lowering their rank in the SERPS
may not be the best for a long term SEO business, if SEO is where he
wants to make his living.

On the other side of that caveat, he could just as easily cherry pick
submitted sites that have poor current SERPS and make himself look
like quite the SEO whiz. Really it all just depends on the
current rank of the site he is critiquing, how competitive the
keywords are, and TJ's SEO skill level and confidence.


just another 2 cents from the peanut gallery,
Jill


Sorry Stacy,

After re-reading my post, I think I misinterpreted your stance on
this. I took your position to be that TJ should never provide
information to potential customers until they were willing to pay him
for it. What I should have replied instead would be:


I think TJ *should* invest the his time to convert inquiries into
customers...

...and he will likely have to do this "for free" to acquire them as
clients. It's very unrealistic they are going to cough up cash to
him at such an early stage when they are so "in the dark" about SEO
and how it works. They will still need some basic SEO trouble
shooting/diagnosis for them to make financial decisions.

So I do disagree with you in that I think he will still have to do
more "free" work with them to make a conversion. IMO, I consider that
a good business decision on TJ's part, not a bad one. Once he
converts them he should most certainly start charging them, I'm sure
we agree there.

Therefore, in my mind, TJ "doing SEO for free" as part of his email
critiques, as you called it, is not the same as him "providing
additional free basic SEO education about their sites". I see what
he's doing as providing sales info, not giving away "free SEO advice".

SEO is a pretty complicated and nebulous process. To give a few basic
hints away for free makes sense, and is good business on TJ's part.
These website owners are as close to "qualified sales leads" as you
can get in the world of SEO-- why lose them right away by asking them
to pay for basic information? Why not make them happy and give it to
them? Especially if it's followed by an offer to fix their site?

I think his idea of setting up a free directory and then critiquing
the submissions is quite a brilliant way to get clients. Kudos to
him if he chooses to follow through on it.

again, just 2 cents on the dollar, as all opinions are.

Jill

Thank you Jill

I think you read the deeper reason for my question well
and I understood your reply exactly.
(even if it was worded a little wrong) ;o)
I think the less I say about how I proceed now the better.

"Jill L." <TotallyMunged (AT) TooManyUsenetEmailHarvesters (DOT) com> wrote

<snip>

Now you can try to convince John and Stacy that giving away 15 minutes
of "free advice" is a worthwhile investment. ;o)~ It's just a
part of the "cost of getting clients" who will then pay you well for
hours and hours of SEO work.

Now if you could understand what I said maybe you would understand better. I
said when they come back don't keep giving them freebie answers(basically).
These are to the same people. He gave them advice in the email already,
again what I said: "Actually, you are already helping them out enough for
free. " When they come back then there is a price.:-) He also wanted to know
if it was unethical and I told him I didn't think so. :-)
Stacey

"Stacey" <Remove-the-Y-stacey (AT) staceyssimplestuff (DOT) com> skrev i meddelandet
news:dpmm7g$vlq$03$1 (AT) news (DOT) t-online.com...

"Jill L." <TotallyMunged (AT) TooManyUsenetEmailHarvesters (DOT) com> wrote in
message
news:sqdtr19mcq8qds3qib44ir58cstoms1ms2 (AT) 4ax (DOT) com...
On Fri, 06 Jan 2006 17:51:43 GMT, Jill L.
TotallyMunged (AT) TooManyUsenetEmai...ters (DOT) com> wrote:

snip
.. I did in the past but some of
my techniques are real good and no one has thought of them yet

You might consider close your mouth with a password then, this way you could
be sure not to let the cat out of the bag....
Miaou...


--
Luigi Donatello Asero
https://www.scaiecat-spa-gigi.com/sv...a/riomaggiore/

Jill L. <TotallyMunged (AT) TooManyUsenetEmailHarvesters (DOT) com> wrote:

On 6 Jan 2006 18:48:39 GMT, John Bokma <john (AT) castleamber (DOT) com> wrote:


snipped lots of points by John about how TJ should not give away
basic "free" SEO advice to users of his directory, that I think makes
business sense to give away

Doing things for free (or discounts for that matter)? Yes, true
insanity. It's very simple: you do work, how much is that worth? And are
you good at it? Then ask more.

Just to make my point about business websites being mainly about
converting visitors into customers.... ( and we're not talking hobby
sites here).


....why, exactly do you give away--- "for free", SEO tools (scripts
and sample code), at your website? Don't you consider "Doing things
for free" "true insanity"?

Yes, I indeed make very small Perl programs available on my site. Most are
programs I use in-house, so they are already there :-D. Some other Perl
advice are just notes I decided to jot down on my website (now and then I
use my own pages to look up things :-D)

However, those are write-once, pleasure many things. You can't compare
that with giving each customer advice for his/her website. In short: in 2
hours I can make many people happy v.s. it takes me 2 hours for everyone.

I have done SEO advice, and asked money for it (not much), and it ended up
with taking too much time, so I can guess what a time waster free advice
is going to be. ( I still do help people with SEO, and still offer the SEO
report writing, only don't advertise it too much :-D. )

Anyway, SEO is serious consulting stuff. Yeah, outside this group it's
often considered selling pipe dreams, but I see SEO as something very
serious, often involving many skills: HTML, CSS, programming (PHP/Perl),
MySQL, knowledge of Apache (and other webservers), etc. It's hard to do it
good and cram in in an hour, even harder to give many people free advice.

I have been into business long enough to know that giving free custom
advice rarely gets you customers. And if it does, it's often because I
gave some free advice to a customer, who recommended me to others because
of and the good work I did, and the little extra.

--
John Perl SEO tools: http://johnbokma.com/perl/
or have them custom made
Experienced (web) developer: http://castleamber.com/

On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 18:21:56 +0100, "Stacey"
<Remove-the-Y-stacey (AT) staceyssimplestuff (DOT) com> wrote:

"T.J." <no1 (AT) home (DOT) invalid> wrote in message
news:dpm7ci$cvo$1 (AT) nwrdmz01 (DOT) dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
I have a directory site and allow people
to submit their sites to it,
I give them a quick check over and if they are
blatantly abusing the google guidelines I email them
a link to the guidelines and tell them that is why I
won't include them.
This inevitably leads to them emailing back saying their
site was done by a 3rd party and wanting to know what
the 3rd party are doing which could cause problems.
I usually tell them just to read the guidelines and discuss
things with the SEO's.
More and more often though they email me back wanting
to know more.
Would it be ethical to tell them the tricks the SEO's are pulling
or should I just keep out of things?
What would you do?

Spill you guts for a price! :-) Actually, you are already helping them out
enough for free. If they want more I see no reason that is unethical to tell
them what is wrong. It is up to you. But you shouldn't be doing SEO for free
to loads of strangers, helping them is good, but doing more is
work(IMHO).:-)

Stacey

He's just going to get caught in the cross-fire.

BB
http://www.crystal-liaison.com/fontanini/index.html kruse (AT) crystal-liaison (DOT) com
Home of the gifty shiny!