tables and layers

Believe it or not, About Layers doesn't appear in DW8's search results with
the keyword "layers".

--
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"MrBonk" <webforumsuser (AT) macromedia (DOT) com> wrote

Help -> Using Dreamweaver.
Search tab - 'layers' as the keyword
About Layers in Dreamweaver should be near the top somewhere.

Murray *TMM* wrote:

Believe it or not, About Layers doesn't appear in DW8's search results with
the keyword "layers".

It does, Murray, but it's way, way down the list. The link I provided to
Livedocs came from doing Mr Bonk's suggested search. I'm sure Macromedia
had the best of intentions when it came up with the name "layer", but
it's caused endless confusion. Now that "layer" definitions are created
as style blocks in the head of the document, it's probably time to lay
the name to rest. The problem is that it's become so well established,
and not everyone uses the latest version of DW.

--
David Powers
Author, "Foundation PHP for Dreamweaver 8" (foED - forthcoming)
Author, "Foundation PHP 5 for Flash" (friends of ED)
http://computerbookshelf.com

MrBonk wrote:

Hey, I'm just quoting what Dreamweaver's own help file says. If that's not the case, then it's not the case. *shrug*

I see from another post that you're using MX 2004, and you're correct
that that's what the MX 2004 help files say. Murray's correct in saying
that you cannot define a relative position in the Property inspector.

The Livedoc page that I pointed you to is the help file from Dreamweaver
8. If and when you upgrade to DW8, you'll discover that "layers" have
changed. The style definition is no longer in the opening div tag, but
in a style block in the head of the web page.

My personal feeling is that Macromedia has caused endless, unnecessary
confusion by using the expression "layer". Absolute and relative
positioning work in very different ways, and using the same name for
both just leads to confusion. It certainly had me confused for several
months.

I've no idea if Dreamweaver will continue to use the expression "layer"
in future versions, but the way that it's currently used refers only to
absolute positioning.

--
David Powers
Author, "Foundation PHP for Dreamweaver 8" (foED - forthcoming)
Author, "Foundation PHP 5 for Flash" (friends of ED)
http://computerbookshelf.com

For what it's worth, and notwithstanding this curious inclusion of
relatively positioned divs in the MX2004 help, Macromedia has always
publicly stated that layers were only absolutely positioned elements - even
on this board. This recollection goes back to DW2, or so....

--
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(If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
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"David Powers" <dp (AT) example (DOT) com> wrote

MrBonk wrote:
Hey, I'm just quoting what Dreamweaver's own help file says. If that's
not the case, then it's not the case. *shrug*

I see from another post that you're using MX 2004, and you're correct that
that's what the MX 2004 help files say. Murray's correct in saying that
you cannot define a relative position in the Property inspector.

The Livedoc page that I pointed you to is the help file from Dreamweaver
8. If and when you upgrade to DW8, you'll discover that "layers" have
changed. The style definition is no longer in the opening div tag, but in
a style block in the head of the web page.

My personal feeling is that Macromedia has caused endless, unnecessary
confusion by using the expression "layer". Absolute and relative
positioning work in very different ways, and using the same name for both
just leads to confusion. It certainly had me confused for several months.

I've no idea if Dreamweaver will continue to use the expression "layer" in
future versions, but the way that it's currently used refers only to
absolute positioning.

--
David Powers
Author, "Foundation PHP for Dreamweaver 8" (foED - forthcoming)
Author, "Foundation PHP 5 for Flash" (friends of ED)
http://computerbookshelf.com

Looks like the MM technical writers have got shorter memories than you, eh,
Murray? :-)

--
Regards

John Waller

That's no surprise! 8)

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"John Waller" <johnw (AT) REMOVETHISpinnacleweb (DOT) com.au> wrote

Looks like the MM technical writers have got shorter memories than you,
eh, Murray? :-)

--
Regards

John Waller

Being new to DW, I too, am confused with this concept. Below is out of the help
file in DW 2004. Notice that it says that "all" <div> tags are Layers. At this
stage in my learning of DW, it is my understanding that "relative" <div> tags
are layers that are positioned according to where they are in the code.
"Absolute" (Layers in DW) are positioned relative to the upper-left corner of
the browser window (in most cases that is...see my question below), so they
will not move when you resize the browser window.

So, if you want to have a something (layer, image, etc) reside underneath an
element that "floats" (not float in DW) because it is positioned "relative",
then you must use another "relative" element.

Or.......I have found that you can place a Layer (absolute positioned <div>)
inside a relative element and have it "float" with that relative element? In
other words, the absolute position of the layer is not positioned relative to
the upper-left of the browser window, but relative to the bottom-left of the
first "relative" element (or maybe it is in relation to the upper-left of the
element...can't remember).

Now, I know that Murray will say, "why do you want to do that? Why not just
use another "relative" tag. Well, I have found that, if I do this, the original
relative element acts in unpredictable ways (like jumping out of a #wrapper
element that is made to float in the center of the browser window).

Oh, bty, as to Mr Bonk's advise of placing a layer inside of a table. I guess
it can be done, but it will not work in many browsers. On page 275-76 of "the
Missing Manual" David McFarland speaks to this. He does say that you can have a
layer overlap or appear to be inside of a table cell, but you should not have
the layer handle inside of the cell.


----from the DW 2004 help file--------

Laying Out Pages with CSS
In Macromedia Dreamweaver MX 2004, you can use CSS to add content blocks to
your document for layout. You can either insert div tags and apply CSS
positioning styles to them, or you can use Dreamweaver layers to create your
layout.
Note: Dreamweaver treats all div tags with absolute or relative position as
layers.
Tip: You can use a Dreamweaver design file as a starting point for your CSS
layout. Select a file from the Page Designs (CSS) category of the New Document
dialog box (see Creating a document based on a Dreamweaver design file).
Whether you use CSS, tables, or frames to lay out your pages, Dreamweaver has
rulers and grids for visual guidance in your layout. Dreamweaver also has a
tracing image feature, which you can use to re-create a page design that was
created in a graphics application.
Note: If you're unfamiliar with using layers and Cascading Style Sheets (CSS),
but are familiar with using tables, try using tables or Layout mode for page
layout (see Presenting Content with Tables and Laying Out Pages in Layout Mode).

See below -

--
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==================


"NewellScott" <webforumsuser (AT) macromedia (DOT) com> wrote

Being new to DW, I too, am confused with this concept. Below is out of the
help
file in DW 2004. Notice that it says that "all" <div> tags are Layers.

No - actually it says this -

Note: Dreamweaver treats all div tags with absolute or relative position as
layers.

and that's wrong. It's not how DW has *ever* treated relatively positioned
elements.

At this
stage in my learning of DW, it is my understanding that "relative" <div
tags
are layers that are positioned according to where they are in the code.

That's correct.

"Absolute" (Layers in DW) are positioned relative to the upper-left corner
of
the browser window (in most cases that is...see my question below), so
they
will not move when you resize the browser window.

That's also almost correct - except that the positioning is calculated
relative to the nearest positioned ancestor. When there isn't one, this
defaults to the body. That's why you can center layers by placing them
inside a centering relatively positioned container.

So, if you want to have a something (layer, image, etc) reside underneath
an
element that "floats" (not float in DW) because it is positioned
"relative",
then you must use another "relative" element.

It's not clear what you are describing here - I don't know what you mean by
"underneath".

Or.......I have found that you can place a Layer (absolute positioned
div>)
inside a relative element and have it "float" with that relative element?

Yes - see above.

In
other words, the absolute position of the layer is not positioned relative
to
the upper-left of the browser window, but relative to the bottom-left of
the
first "relative" element (or maybe it is in relation to the upper-left of
the
element...can't remember).

Yes - upper left.

Now, I know that Murray will say, "why do you want to do that? Why not
just
use another "relative" tag.

No - I don't say that.

Well, I have found that, if I do this, the original
relative element acts in unpredictable ways (like jumping out of a
#wrapper
element that is made to float in the center of the browser window).

Oh, bty, as to Mr Bonk's advise of placing a layer inside of a table. I
guess
it can be done, but it will not work in many browsers. On page 275-76 of
"the
Missing Manual" David McFarland speaks to this. He does say that you can
have a
layer overlap or appear to be inside of a table cell, but you should not
have
the layer handle inside of the cell.

Yes - that's correct. I know. I tech edited it! 8)

----from the DW 2004 help file--------

Laying Out Pages with CSS
In Macromedia Dreamweaver MX 2004, you can use CSS to add content blocks
to
your document for layout. You can either insert div tags and apply CSS
positioning styles to them, or you can use Dreamweaver layers to create
your
layout.
Note: Dreamweaver treats all div tags with absolute or relative position
as
layers.
Tip: You can use a Dreamweaver design file as a starting point for your
CSS
layout. Select a file from the Page Designs (CSS) category of the New
Document
dialog box (see Creating a document based on a Dreamweaver design file).
Whether you use CSS, tables, or frames to lay out your pages, Dreamweaver
has
rulers and grids for visual guidance in your layout. Dreamweaver also has
a
tracing image feature, which you can use to re-create a page design that
was
created in a graphics application.
Note: If you're unfamiliar with using layers and Cascading Style Sheets
(CSS),
but are familiar with using tables, try using tables or Layout mode for
page
layout (see Presenting Content with Tables and Laying Out Pages in Layout
Mode).

Thanks Murray, very helpful.

The thread below brings me to another question regarding relative positioning.
I have put images inside containers to help position them in text, but have had
trouble understanding where that "upper-left" position is.

On the following page
(http://homepage.mac.com/nshoffner/EEC/Services/Substation.htm) the gray box
with "Substation Design and Construction Management" at the top is a "Relative"
positioned div (called "bodyMain"). Inside the gray box, the bold title is <h3>
styled, the first paragraph is a inline <p> styled and the bulleted list
("listContainer") is in a Relative div which positions at Top = 10px (all are
px) Left = 8. This, then, makes it seem that the bullet container is relative
to the end of the text inside the main container "bodyMain", and not relative
to the upper-left of the gray box (bodyMain).

Doesn't Top = 10 mean the element is 10 px down from whatever; kind of like a
margin?

I had trouble positioning the two images also, so I put them into Relative
div's, right under the div for the bulleted list. To get the pictures to
position where they are in the page you see, the position is, get this, top =
-100 left = 250 (or right = -250)! Doesn't this then make it relative to the
bottom of the bulleted container and not the top-left?

BTY, the picture I am talking (the top one) of is in a container class called
"pickInLineRight"

Thanks

In
other words, the absolute position of the layer is not positioned relative
to
the upper-left of the browser window, but relative to the bottom-left of
the
first "relative" element (or maybe it is in relation to the upper-left of
the
element...can't remember).

Yes - upper left.

Sorry, for some reason the link does not work. Try

http://homepage.mac.com/nshoffner/EEC/index.htm

and then click on Services.