Same Page Website

Thanks a lot Tim and Joost. I have a better sense of what I am doing now.

Meeker

frames are almost always a bad solution. in this case definitely a bad
solution.


joe




joost kolkman wrote:

Frames are allright with me.

The easiest way to start is to choose the frames tab and take the
configuration you like. Beware that a frameset consists of different
pages that all schould be saved in the same directory.

If you make a link you have to choose a target. Dreamwaever default name
of the contentframe is mainFrame.

take a look here to improve your skills.
http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/frames/default.asp

take a look here for the drawbacks:
http://www.apptools.com/rants/framesevil.php

As you can see in the first link most drawbacks can be solved with
scripting. Only bookmarking is difficult; with a small site that is not
a problem.

I do not agree that frames have a major usability isue. In my experience
webbuilders don't like frames but users and graphical designers like it
very much to have their navigation allways on screen.

choice is up to you.

Joost Kolkman


meeker25 wrote:

I see what I am trying to do on a lot of websites. I don't think I am
explaining it very well... I am so new to this whole thing and I
think I am out of my league. I will try and explain it one more
time..... Lets just say I have a template I want to use for every
page. One for news, media, biography and so on... On these templates
you want them to chang each time to match up with you selection. If
you click on news you want the news to come up.... On a lot of
websites when you click on news or another button it comes up in it's
own little box instead of having to reload the whole page..... ok
picture this.... Buttons that are nemed Bipgraphy, news, media,
guestbook, and shows are on the left of the website along with a logo
on the top... I want these to be on every page of the site..... to
the right of these buttons and below the logo is a blank space that
makes a square and this is where i want the content to appear when
each choice is made. Thus the only thing that is loading when i click
on the buttons is the content to the right.......... I don't want to
have the whole page load each time.. I want the basic template to stay
all the time and the square that has the contents of the site to be
the only thing that loads when i click a choice..... Ok I am don't
sounding stupid...... Maybe I need to give it up.. lol

Meeker

--

=================================

Kanzo Limited
www.kanzostudio.com

=================================

Thanks for your opinion

Joost Kolkman

Joe {RoastHorse} wrote:

frames are almost always a bad solution. in this case definitely a bad
solution.


joe




joost kolkman wrote:

Frames are allright with me.

The easiest way to start is to choose the frames tab and take the
configuration you like. Beware that a frameset consists of different
pages that all schould be saved in the same directory.

If you make a link you have to choose a target. Dreamwaever default
name of the contentframe is mainFrame.

take a look here to improve your skills.
http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/frames/default.asp

take a look here for the drawbacks:
http://www.apptools.com/rants/framesevil.php

As you can see in the first link most drawbacks can be solved with
scripting. Only bookmarking is difficult; with a small site that is
not a problem.

I do not agree that frames have a major usability isue. In my
experience webbuilders don't like frames but users and graphical
designers like it very much to have their navigation allways on screen.

choice is up to you.

Joost Kolkman


meeker25 wrote:

I see what I am trying to do on a lot of websites. I don't think I
am explaining it very well... I am so new to this whole thing and I
think I am out of my league. I will try and explain it one more
time..... Lets just say I have a template I want to use for every
page. One for news, media, biography and so on... On these
templates you want them to chang each time to match up with you
selection. If you click on news you want the news to come up.... On
a lot of websites when you click on news or another button it comes
up in it's own little box instead of having to reload the whole
page..... ok picture this.... Buttons that are nemed Bipgraphy,
news, media, guestbook, and shows are on the left of the website
along with a logo on the top... I want these to be on every page of
the site..... to the right of these buttons and below the logo is a
blank space that makes a square and this is where i want the content
to appear when each choice is made. Thus the only thing that is
loading when i click on the buttons is the content to the
right.......... I don't want to have the whole page load each time..
I want the basic template to stay all the time and the square that
has the contents of the site to be the only thing that loads when i
click a choice..... Ok I am don't sounding stupid...... Maybe I
need to give it up.. lol

Meeker

Just so you'll know, Joost is experienced at working with frames. Of course
he says he likes them.

He is blind to the disadvantages that frames impose on you as the developer
and especially on your visitors.

As far as I know, the most comprehensive discussions of frames and their
potential problems can be found on these two links -

http://apptools.com/rants/framesevil.php
http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/frames/

The decision point for you is quite simple. If you can understand all of
the issues discussed on those two links, and are prepared to deal with them,
then please go ahead and use frames. If you cannot or are not, then you are
not ready to use them.

--
Murray --- ICQ 71997575
Team Macromedia Volunteer for Dreamweaver
(If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
==================
http://www.dreamweavermx-templates.com - Template Triage!
http://www.projectseven.com/go - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
http://www.dwfaq.com - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
http://www.macromedia.com/support/search/ - Macromedia (MM) Technotes
==================

"meeker25" <webforumsuser (AT) macromedia (DOT) com> wrote

I see what I am trying to do on a lot of websites. I don't think I am
explaining it very well... I am so new to this whole thing and I think I
am
out of my league. I will try and explain it one more time..... Lets just
say
I have a template I want to use for every page. One for news, media,
biography
and so on... On these templates you want them to chang each time to match
up
with you selection. If you click on news you want the news to come up....
On
a lot of websites when you click on news or another button it comes up in
it's
own little box instead of having to reload the whole page..... ok picture
this.... Buttons that are nemed Bipgraphy, news, media, guestbook, and
shows
are on the left of the website along with a logo on the top... I want
these to
be on every page of the site..... to the right of these buttons and below
the
logo is a blank space that makes a square and this is where i want the
content
to appear when each choice is made. Thus the only thing that is loading
when i
click on the buttons is the content to the right.......... I don't want
to
have the whole page load each time.. I want the basic template to stay all
the
time and the square that has the contents of the site to be the only thing
that
loads when i click a choice..... Ok I am don't sounding stupid......
Maybe I
need to give it up.. lol

Meeker

joost kolkman wrote:

I do not agree that frames have a major usability isue. In my experience
webbuilders don't like frames but users and graphical designers like it
very much to have their navigation allways on screen.

Steven Pemberton, Chair of the W3C HTML and Forms Working Groups, would
disagree about the usability issue. See about half way down the page at
http://www.w3.org/Talks/2002/04/11-pemberton under the headings "More
usability" and "Usability of frames [continued]".

As you said, *most* of the usability issues can be overcome with
scripting. Properly implemented, frames can be a good answer for some
particular needs. The problem is that the majority of the people using
frames are unaware of the pitfalls and have no idea how to overcome
them. Of course overcoming those issues will require that JavaScript be
enabled on the user agent for the site to function correctly, which is a
bit of a usability issue in itself.

There are a couple of ways to look at having the navigation always on
screen. From the standpoint of the user being able to access the
navigation quickly and easily, it is a plus. The other side of that is
that the navigation is *always* taking up valuable screen real estate.
There is less room for the content. If pages don't get excessively long,
it's usually not a difficult task to get to the navigation on a
non-framed page. The choice is one the designer needs to make based on
the particular design of the site.

I would never go so far as to say that frames are always a bad idea. The
decision about whether or not to use frames should be made based on the
design goals, a clear understanding of the issues involved, knowledge of
what should be done to overcome the potential usability issues if frames
are used, along with a willingness to take the steps necessary to make
the site usable.

JMHO,
Gary

Gary White wrote:

joost kolkman wrote:


I do not agree that frames have a major usability isue. In my experience
webbuilders don't like frames but users and graphical designers like it
very much to have their navigation allways on screen.


Steven Pemberton, Chair of the W3C HTML and Forms Working Groups, would
disagree about the usability issue. See about half way down the page at
http://www.w3.org/Talks/2002/04/11-pemberton under the headings "More
usability" and "Usability of frames [continued]".

Nothing new there (and what an ugly site! talking about chasing users
away...)

My sites never have problems with the backbutton.

That your pages cannot be bookmarked is an advantage for commercial
sites with banners on the homepage; just redirect them to the homepage
when a frame is requested out of its frameset.(can also be done with
server side scripting)

and if you realy need a site that can be bookmarked, you know my
javascript solution used here
http://www.montessorischoolapollo.nl/
(can also be done in php or asp)

I am against scrollwheels becaus they tend to cause rsi.
(and with the navigation allways on screen you don't have to scroll bak
to top; saves a lot of mouse milage)

The funny thing about claiming some room for your navgation: this was
valid ages ago when we had our for 640x480 screens... But even laptops
have decent screens nowadays.

Just a link why it is a good habit to have your navigation always on screen:
http://psychology.wichita.edu/surl/usabilitynews/41/Link_position.htm

And for search engines: google for asbestsanering and see were you find
Avenant. You can look at the source how it is done. Also this argument
is outdated because the major search engines do find all the pages, also
without the no-frames content.

It is all a matter of personal preference.

Joost Kolkman

As you said, *most* of the usability issues can be overcome with
scripting. Properly implemented, frames can be a good answer for some
particular needs. The problem is that the majority of the people using
frames are unaware of the pitfalls and have no idea how to overcome
them. Of course overcoming those issues will require that JavaScript be
enabled on the user agent for the site to function correctly, which is a
bit of a usability issue in itself.

There are a couple of ways to look at having the navigation always on
screen. From the standpoint of the user being able to access the
navigation quickly and easily, it is a plus. The other side of that is
that the navigation is *always* taking up valuable screen real estate.
There is less room for the content. If pages don't get excessively long,
it's usually not a difficult task to get to the navigation on a
non-framed page. The choice is one the designer needs to make based on
the particular design of the site.

I would never go so far as to say that frames are always a bad idea. The
decision about whether or not to use frames should be made based on the
design goals, a clear understanding of the issues involved, knowledge of
what should be done to overcome the potential usability issues if frames
are used, along with a willingness to take the steps necessary to make
the site usable.

JMHO,
Gary

joost kolkman wrote:

Nothing new there (and what an ugly site! talking about chasing users
away...)

<LOL> You and I agree completely there. :-) Like I said, I don't condemn
frames. I just think developer should make an informed choice.


Gary

That is a very true statement!

Joost Kolkman


Gary White wrote:

joost kolkman wrote:


Nothing new there (and what an ugly site! talking about chasing users
away...)



LOL> You and I agree completely there. :-) Like I said, I don't condemn
frames. I just think developer should make an informed choice.


Gary

joost kolkman wrote:

That is a very true statement!

How can something be very true? Isn't something either true or not true?
Mick

Just the opposite of half lying?Some statements are more true than
others....

Joost Kolkman
(who loves shades of grey and refuses to see the world in black and white)

Mick White wrote:

joost kolkman wrote:

That is a very true statement!


How can something be very true? Isn't something either true or not true?
Mick