Question about why frames are no longer acceptable?

Is there a definitive article somewhere on why frames are no longer
considered acceptable in WEB design? I'm switching to purely CSS based sites
for other reasons, and will probably get away frames as well - but why are
people against them? Is it purely because search engines don't like them?

Just thought I'd ask - you can never have too much information!

KRs

Barry

--

Dr Barry Clark
Senior Lecturer
Medical Education Unit
Faculty of Medicine
Wolfson Medical School Building
University of Glasgow
Glasgow G12 8QQ
Tel: 0141-330-4248
Email: b.clark (AT) clinmed (DOT) gla.ac.uk

Some articles discribing your problem:

http://apptools.com/rants/framesevil.php
http://www.tjkdesign.com/resources/frames/

Solutions to the problems discribed:

www.searchmechanics.com/learn/srf/srf.htm
or asp
http://www.dmxzone.com/ShowDetail.asp?NewsId=732

(The simple one is to redirect your users to the homepage with a simple
java-script:You can use an extention for that purpose:
http://www.pawluk.com/public/dw/dwfset.htm?dw.htm~fmain
And take a look at the framestuffer; a help file is provided.)

If the part on the page that you would like to be always on screen
contains links, the only reliable solution is frames. If you don't mind
that your navigation scrolls away with your content you can use css or
tables.

It is up to you which choices you make and what you think is important.
In my opinion frames are acceptable if used wisely.
And in my opinion css-p is as acceptable if used wisely.

Joost Kolkman


Barry Clark wrote:

Is there a definitive article somewhere on why frames are no longer
considered acceptable in WEB design? I'm switching to purely CSS based sites
for other reasons, and will probably get away frames as well - but why are
people against them? Is it purely because search engines don't like them?

Just thought I'd ask - you can never have too much information!

KRs

Barry

Hi Barry,

Is there a definitive article somewhere on why frames are no longer
considered acceptable in WEB design?

IMO, there is nothing wrong with frames as long as they are used to solve
problems, and not to create them (and in this case it is the designer who is
wrong).

well - but why are people against them? Is it purely because search
engines don't like them?

SE have no problem with frames, they have problem with badly implemented
framesets and frames-documents.

Follow the links posted by joost, there is plenty of info there

My 2 cents,
Thierry

Barry Clark wrote:

Is there a definitive article somewhere on why frames are no longer
considered acceptable in WEB design? I'm switching to purely CSS
based sites for other reasons, and will probably get away frames as

but why are
people against them?

More often than not, it's because they are implemented poorly...which does
affect search engine indexing, and, more important, can degrade usability
and accessibility.

Also, the arguments FOR using them aren't usually too strong. 'having your
navigation not scroll' usually isn't really an issue to worry about.

That said, there are certainly times when frames are appropriate...you just
need to be aware of the issues.

-Darrel

Thanks - that's helpful.

I personally find frames helpful on complex sites - and I'm careful to
ensure the <noframes> tag points to key areas as well as containing the
keywords. Seems to be OK, as you say, when you are careful.

Much appreciated.

Thanks!

B
"darrel" <notreal (AT) hotmail (DOT) com> wrote

but why are
people against them?

More often than not, it's because they are implemented poorly...which does
affect search engine indexing, and, more important, can degrade usability
and accessibility.

Also, the arguments FOR using them aren't usually too strong. 'having your
navigation not scroll' usually isn't really an issue to worry about.

That said, there are certainly times when frames are appropriate...you
just
need to be aware of the issues.

-Darrel

I personally find frames helpful on complex sites -

Well, if a site is complex, frames actually might make it more complex.

Often, Frames make it easier for the developer, but not necessarily for the
end-user.

It's often best to step back and ask your self what problem am I trying to
resolve by using or not using frames? Usually the problem isn't one that
will be necessarily fixed via the use of frames, but may require some
rethinking elsewhere.

-Darrel

Just a point were we al know I disagree with Darrell;

In my experience the end-users loves his navigation allways on screen.
It is usually the designer that sacrifices this feature of frames
because he doesn't want to solve the problems that come with frames.

If you use frames, use them with care, if you do so you are doing a good
job.

Joost Kolkman

PS: I also like frames much better than any other solution (and I have
used them all) on complex sites.


darrel wrote:

I personally find frames helpful on complex sites -


Well, if a site is complex, frames actually might make it more complex.

Often, Frames make it easier for the developer, but not necessarily for the
end-user.

It's often best to step back and ask your self what problem am I trying to
resolve by using or not using frames? Usually the problem isn't one that
will be necessarily fixed via the use of frames, but may require some
rethinking elsewhere.

-Darrel

In my experience the end-users loves his navigation allways on screen.

At the same time, plenty of research has shown that end-users are quite
capable of scrolling a page.

The real answer is to do what your end-users want, and do lots of user
testing. That's rarely done, though.

So, barring that, try it out yourself. See if you can bookmark internal
pages. See if it works in a screen reader. See if grandma can use the site.
It may work, it may not.

Some of the issues of poorly implemented frames that I'd call a detriment to
navigation would be:

1) static navigation frame which doesn't give any context as to what the
current page is
2) issues with screen readers
3) small viewports require scrolling of both content frame and navigation
frame
4) requires use of noframes tags extensively to handle things like PDAs and
text browsers

Rarely does having the navigation 'not scroll' warrant those types of
drawbacks. Sometimes it does. Just be sure you weigh the pros and cons well.
As Joost states, use them with care.

PS: I also like frames much better than any other solution (and I have
used them all) on complex sites.

Well, before we continue this debate, we really all need to be on the same
page as to what we're calling 'complex' and how frames are helping said
site.

-Darrel

Barry Clark wrote:

Is there a definitive article somewhere on why frames are no longer
considered acceptable in WEB design? I'm switching to purely CSS based sites
for other reasons, and will probably get away frames as well - but why are
people against them? Is it purely because search engines don't like them?

Just thought I'd ask - you can never have too much information!

KRs

Barry

Just an example (and I've never used frames, being lucky in my

newbieness never to have come across the option). A few months ago DiMa
and I were looking for a place around Big Bear to hold a little--uh,
mini-conference/party weekend or something. We found a great place with
vacation houses to rent. We were looking ONLY at houses that would
sleep (sorry, that doesn't seem like a transitive verb, but you know
what I mean) 15 or more people. Well, on this one very good site, you
could click on a particular town or area in the neighborhood, and then
select various houses, some of which slept far too few people to be
interesting to us. When I tried to send Diana booksmarks to
**specific** houses, they didn't work, because the site was built in
frames and all I could send her was the main page of the agency that had
the rentals. In other words, the hyperlink I copied from the www bar
above the site was not designed to show the particular page. We both
found this somewhat annoying, to say the least, as we had to invidually
navigate each location to find the house we were looking for.


HTH
--
Bonnie in Sacramento
kroko at
sbcglobal dot net

Was it a frame house? <rimshot>

--
Murray --- ICQ 71997575
Team Macromedia Volunteer for Dreamweaver MX
(If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
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"Bonnie in Sacramento" <kroko (AT) endofmyropesbcglobal (DOT) net> wrote

Barry Clark wrote:

Is there a definitive article somewhere on why frames are no longer
considered acceptable in WEB design? I'm switching to purely CSS based
sites
for other reasons, and will probably get away frames as well - but why
are
people against them? Is it purely because search engines don't like
them?

Just thought I'd ask - you can never have too much information!

KRs

Barry

Just an example (and I've never used frames, being lucky in my
newbieness never to have come across the option). A few months ago DiMa
and I were looking for a place around Big Bear to hold a little--uh,
mini-conference/party weekend or something. We found a great place with
vacation houses to rent. We were looking ONLY at houses that would
sleep (sorry, that doesn't seem like a transitive verb, but you know
what I mean) 15 or more people. Well, on this one very good site, you
could click on a particular town or area in the neighborhood, and then
select various houses, some of which slept far too few people to be
interesting to us. When I tried to send Diana booksmarks to
**specific** houses, they didn't work, because the site was built in
frames and all I could send her was the main page of the agency that had
the rentals. In other words, the hyperlink I copied from the www bar
above the site was not designed to show the particular page. We both
found this somewhat annoying, to say the least, as we had to invidually
navigate each location to find the house we were looking for.


HTH
--
Bonnie in Sacramento
kroko at
sbcglobal dot net