Are iframes bad?

I am redesigning my companies website using css, and would like to implement
iframes (using project seven's floating frame extension) and it seems to be
working really well.

Before I start developing my entire site using this way, has anyone run into
problems using iframes, or can give me reasons NOT to use them?

I've read that frames in general are not web standard compliant, but haven't
determined exactly why that is or heard of any practical alternatives.

JLI wrote:

I am redesigning my companies website using css, and would like to implement
iframes (using project seven's floating frame extension) and it seems to be
working really well.

Before I start developing my entire site using this way, has anyone run into
problems using iframes, or can give me reasons NOT to use them?

I've read that frames in general are not web standard compliant, but haven't
determined exactly why that is or heard of any practical alternatives.

I believe users of non-W3C DOM compatible browsers, e.g. NN4.xx, will
have problems with the iframes.
I don't know if they're better fit to see regular divs with scrolling
overflow, though.
Frames are web standard compliant, but might cause various problems. See
http://apptools.com/rants/framesevil.php

--
Dan Vendel - *GOF*
Contact me directly at http://contact.vendel.info
Formmail tutorial at http://www.vendel.info/tut/formmail.html
Nested table demonstration at http://www.vendel.info/tabletut/
Search Engine Optimization & Rank Control Utility at http://awr.vendel.info
Search Dreamweaver newsgroup at http://www.vendel.info/google.html

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 16:55:01 +0000 (UTC), "JLI"
<webforumsuser (AT) macromedia (DOT) com> wrote:

I am redesigning my companies website using css, and would like to implement
iframes (using project seven's floating frame extension) and it seems to be
working really well.

Before I start developing my entire site using this way, has anyone run into
problems using iframes, or can give me reasons NOT to use them?

I've read that frames in general are not web standard compliant, but haven't
determined exactly why that is or heard of any practical alternatives.

I see that Dan gave you a link to my site. I'll just add that IFRAMEs
suffer from all the same issues that frames do, with the added problem
of incompatibility with older browsers.


Gary

"JLI" <webforumsuser (AT) macromedia (DOT) com> wrote

I am redesigning my companies website using css, and would like to
implement
iframes (using project seven's floating frame extension) and it seems to
be
working really well.

Before I start developing my entire site using this way, has anyone run
into
problems using iframes, or can give me reasons NOT to use them?

I've read that frames in general are not web standard compliant, but
haven't
determined exactly why that is or heard of any practical alternatives.

Frames (not iFrames) are a great tool if you know how to use them.

The mere mention of frames can provoke epileptic seizures among some people
who've had their minds made up since 1996 when no one knew how to use
frames, and browsers were in their beta stages.

Since then, however, people have learned to design websites (and browsers),
and frames are actually quite useful. For every badly assembled frame-based
site out there, there's a www.MarcGabriele.com which is a pleasure to
navigate through. Aside from the flash intro, that site is entirely HTML /
frame / CSS based.

It's amazing what I read on some anti-frame sites. Take this part, for
instance :

"Users cannot bookmark a specific collection of pages that make up the page
displayed. If a user attempts to bookmark a page and later returns to that
bookmarked page, they will no doubt be surprised to find that the default
pages of the frameset are displayed instead of the pages they actually
wanted to see. This can also be overcome with the use of JavaScript."

No offense to the author, but that's just horse manure. This kind of info
hasn't been updated since 1996. Browsers can easily bookmark exactly what
part of the website you're in, regardless of how far deep inside it you are.
Try it on that sample site I gave you. Go to the Contact page, and bookmark
it. Then load the bookmark. It'll bring you right back where you were - the
Contact page.

With info this outdated, you can see how it's hard to take any of the other
anti-frame warnings seriously. I've designed frame and non-frame sites, and
each has served its purpose wonderfully. Sometimes frames are called for,
sometimes they're not - but I assure you, compatibility and/or bugs have
nothing to do with that call. It's just a functionality and navigation
question.

Of course, some will quote problems with niche browsers that are used by
less than 1% of the surfing public... and use that to convince you to stop
using frames. I say pfeh.

iFrames, however, are another issue altogether. But if mega commercial
websites with millions of dollars on the line use iFrames to run their ads,
I don't think you have much to worry about.

Don't let the 1996-compliant militants discourage you. The technology is
there to be used. Just keep in mind that over 90% of the surfing public is
using the latest Internet Explorer - so if it's working for you, it's
working for them.

I agree with you that frames are extremely useful and can make a website so
much easier to navigate (and to design) when used correctly. I have just been
concerned lately after hearing all the talk about the new web standards and how
we should all do away with frames. But until more browsers support the
alternatives to frames, such as using fixed positioning or the object element,
I for one am going to keep using them (and I promise to use them responsibly!).

As far as iframes go, it is something I just discovered so am worried about
how well they work overall and if they cause other unforseen problems. They
seem to be working perfectly now...

...if only all my websites looked and worked as well in other browsers as they
do in Safari...

Thanks!!

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 17:08:53 -0400, "Jon Yeager" <nospam (AT) please (DOT) com>
wrote:

Try it on that sample site I gave you. Go to the Contact page, and bookmark
it. Then load the bookmark. It'll bring you right back where you were - the
Contact page.

That's just wrong. I just tried it to be certain. I tried bookmarking a
couple of different pages. Returning to any of the bookmarks took me to
the home page (meaning the page you go to after the useless Flash intro.

There are ways around many of the shortcomings and usability issues
introduced by the use of frames. The sad part is, most of the people
actually using frames lack the knowledge to implement those work
arounds.


Gary

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 17:08:53 -0400, "Jon Yeager" <nospam (AT) please (DOT) com>
wrote:

"JLI" <webforumsuser (AT) macromedia (DOT) com> wrote in message
news:cb73t5$ame$1 (AT) forums (DOT) macromedia.com...
I am redesigning my companies website using css, and would like to
implement
iframes (using project seven's floating frame extension) and it seems to
be
working really well.

Before I start developing my entire site using this way, has anyone run
into
problems using iframes, or can give me reasons NOT to use them?

I've read that frames in general are not web standard compliant, but
haven't
determined exactly why that is or heard of any practical alternatives.

Frames (not iFrames) are a great tool if you know how to use them.

The mere mention of frames can provoke epileptic seizures among some people
who've had their minds made up since 1996 when no one knew how to use
frames, and browsers were in their beta stages.

Since then, however, people have learned to design websites (and browsers),
and frames are actually quite useful. For every badly assembled frame-based
site out there, there's a www.MarcGabriele.com which is a pleasure to
navigate through. Aside from the flash intro, that site is entirely HTML /
frame / CSS based.

It's amazing what I read on some anti-frame sites. Take this part, for
instance :

"Users cannot bookmark a specific collection of pages that make up the page
displayed. If a user attempts to bookmark a page and later returns to that
bookmarked page, they will no doubt be surprised to find that the default
pages of the frameset are displayed instead of the pages they actually
wanted to see. This can also be overcome with the use of JavaScript."

No offense to the author, but that's just horse manure. This kind of info
hasn't been updated since 1996. Browsers can easily bookmark exactly what
part of the website you're in, regardless of how far deep inside it you are.
Try it on that sample site I gave you. Go to the Contact page, and bookmark
it. Then load the bookmark. It'll bring you right back where you were - the
Contact page.

Only in IE. Why bother? Frames for that site don't gain anything.

Win
--
Win Day, Multimedia Developer
Words Plus
http://www.wordsplus.net
winday (AT) NOSPAMwordsplus (DOT) net

Jon Yeager wrote:

No offense to the author, but that's just horse manure. This kind of info
hasn't been updated since 1996. Browsers can easily bookmark exactly what
part of the website you're in, regardless of how far deep inside it you are.
Try it on that sample site I gave you. Go to the Contact page, and bookmark
it. Then load the bookmark. It'll bring you right back where you were - the
Contact page.

What drivel. You're plain wrong.
Besides: Don't change a thread's subject. Some people will lose track of
the thread.

--
Dan Vendel - *GOF*
Contact me directly at http://contact.vendel.info
Formmail tutorial at http://www.vendel.info/tut/formmail.html
Nested table demonstration at http://www.vendel.info/tabletut/
Search Engine Optimization & Rank Control Utility at http://awr.vendel.info
Search Dreamweaver newsgroup at http://www.vendel.info/google.html

Two links that might help designers to use frames responsibly:

www.searchmechanics.com/learn/srf/srf.htm
or asp
http://www.dmxzone.com/ShowDetail.asp?NewsId=732

These solutions don't work with iFrames.
An other problem I encountered using iFrames are thee messy scrollbars
when your viewing area is smaller then the iFrame; you have to scroll
down the page to get to the scrollbar to scrol your iFrames.... With
Fames I never had this problem.

Happy framing,

Joost Kolkman

(users and graphical designers love frames... It is the webdessigners
responsibility to use frames wisely)
http://psychology.wichita.edu/surl/usabilitynews/41/Link_position.htm


JLI wrote:

I agree with you that frames are extremely useful and can make a website so
much easier to navigate (and to design) when used correctly. I have just been
concerned lately after hearing all the talk about the new web standards and how
we should all do away with frames. But until more browsers support the
alternatives to frames, such as using fixed positioning or the object element,
I for one am going to keep using them (and I promise to use them responsibly!).

As far as iframes go, it is something I just discovered so am worried about
how well they work overall and if they cause other unforseen problems. They
seem to be working perfectly now...

...if only all my websites looked and worked as well in other browsers as they
do in Safari...

Thanks!!

there's a www.MarcGabriele.com
which is a pleasure to navigate through. Aside from the flash intro,
that site is entirely HTML / frame / CSS based.

What about this?

<noframes>
<body bgcolor="#000000" text="#000000">
</body>
</noframes>

And "browsers can easily bookmark exactly what part of the website you're
in", *that* is horse manure...



Thierry

Jon Yeager wrote:

"JLI" <webforumsuser (AT) macromedia (DOT) com> wrote in message
news:cb73t5$ame$1 (AT) forums (DOT) macromedia.com...
I am redesigning my companies website using css, and would like to
implement iframes (using project seven's floating frame extension)
and it seems to be working really well.

Before I start developing my entire site using this way, has anyone
run into problems using iframes, or can give me reasons NOT to use
them?

I've read that frames in general are not web standard compliant,
but haven't determined exactly why that is or heard of any practical
alternatives.