Frames Continued - Why I Hate them OR why I Still Use Them.

This is intended to be a continuation of the discussion below which was
called: "Frames Survey - How many use them and how many don't?"
I'm trying to figure out why people hate them so much.
A couple of people suggested that the problem is with the user, not the
frame structure itself, implying that if you get good at it, they won't be
problematic.

While still a relative newbie, I have agonized for enough hours over
frames, that I've finally got them down to a certain comfort level and
predictability that I don't mind using them.
I'm wondering SPECIFICALLY why people hate them.
The only reason I've seen given that makes sense to me is that someone
conducting a search might end up pulling up a single frame of a page, rather
than the whole thing. THAT sounds like a problem.
Is there anything else?

--
John

John wrote:

While still a relative newbie, I have agonized for enough hours over
frames, that I've finally got them down to a certain comfort level and
predictability that I don't mind using them.
I'm wondering SPECIFICALLY why people hate them.
The only reason I've seen given that makes sense to me is that someone
conducting a search might end up pulling up a single frame of a page, rather
than the whole thing. THAT sounds like a problem.
Is there anything else?

John,
There's no reason for yet another thread. You could easily stick to the
one you already created.
Go here:
apptools.com/rants/framesevil.php

--
Dan Vendel - *GOF*
http://www.vendel.info
Contact me directly by clicking here:
http://contact.vendel.info
Formmail tutorial:
http://www.vendel.info/tut/formmail.html
Nested table demonstration:
http://www.vendel.info/tabletut/

As a user I have another gripe! When doing research on the web and
requiring to print a age for reference, I sometimes end up printing a minor
frame with none of the details I need. This seems to be due to the focus
being on the minor frame rather than the required frame
Besides, why should extensive knowledge be required in order to use a web
page properly. Surely it is better for the programmer if the page functions
properly for the untrained user as well as the expert user.
John (another one!)

"John" <john.flaherty1 (AT) comcast (DOT) net> wrote

This is intended to be a continuation of the discussion below which was
called: "Frames Survey - How many use them and how many don't?"
I'm trying to figure out why people hate them so much.
A couple of people suggested that the problem is with the user, not the
frame structure itself, implying that if you get good at it, they won't be
problematic.

While still a relative newbie, I have agonized for enough hours over
frames, that I've finally got them down to a certain comfort level and
predictability that I don't mind using them.
I'm wondering SPECIFICALLY why people hate them.
The only reason I've seen given that makes sense to me is that someone
conducting a search might end up pulling up a single frame of a page,
rather
than the whole thing. THAT sounds like a problem.
Is there anything else?

--
John

"John" <john.flaherty1 (AT) comcast (DOT) net> wrote in message
news:berh37$539$1 (AT) forums (DOT) macromedia.com...

A couple of people suggested that the problem is with the user, not the
frame structure itself, implying that if you get good at it, they won't be
problematic.

That's one of the issues. You should never do anything that makes
things difficult for the user. They won't spend the effort to LEARN
how to use your site. They'll go to another site that's easier.

Frames destroy accessibility. For that reason, they will be illegal
for sites offering a service to the public in the UK, by UK
organisations, from March 31st 2005, under the terms of the
Disabilities Discrimination Act. my understanding is that they are
ALREADY illegal for public service sites in the USA, under the famous
Section 508, though I stand to be corrected on that one. I'm sure of
my ground on the UK law, though.



Paul Taylor

13 Jul 2003 04:56 AM John wrote:

I'm trying to figure out why people hate them so much.

Me too: they're just a tool. While they're easily misused, so are things
like tables, layers, resolution detection, etc. I find it hard to
"hate" an inanimate object that I only interact with by my own choice.

While still a relative newbie ..

All that means is that you should spend some time getting comfortable
with frames (as you appear to have done) then use them appropriately.

Having the navigation available all the time is not a sufficiently
"appropriate use" as a general rule.

On longer pages with content you want the visitor to read and assimilate,
the visible nav bar: reduces the real estate available for your message;
distracts from your message/story; makes it easy for the visitor to
leave that content.

There are exceptions.

On my site I use frames for the extension pages. The content is
"disjointed" and frame navigation allows the visitor to quickly jump
from one snippet to another on the same page, and still not lose their
context. If I had not used frames here, the visitor would have had to
keep going back to the top to get to another spot on the same page.

Other useful frame applications are for online stores like MacMall,
where the visitor is again likely looking for disjoint content rather
than for a single topic.

There are drawbacks (the back button, search engines) but there are also
work-arounds.

And it's not just frames that can be misused. Take a look at the
Macromedia site.

--
Hal
http://www.pawluk.com/public/
http://www.tude.com/

Hal:

In the case of frames, I make an exception. I hate them. 8)

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Team Macromedia Volunteer for Dreamweaver MX
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"Anti-Spam" <nosp@m.com> wrote

13 Jul 2003 04:56 AM John wrote:

I'm trying to figure out why people hate them so much.

Me too: they're just a tool. While they're easily misused, so are things
like tables, layers, resolution detection, etc. I find it hard to
"hate" an inanimate object that I only interact with by my own choice.

While still a relative newbie ..

All that means is that you should spend some time getting comfortable
with frames (as you appear to have done) then use them appropriately.

Having the navigation available all the time is not a sufficiently
"appropriate use" as a general rule.

On longer pages with content you want the visitor to read and assimilate,
the visible nav bar: reduces the real estate available for your message;
distracts from your message/story; makes it easy for the visitor to
leave that content.

There are exceptions.

On my site I use frames for the extension pages. The content is
"disjointed" and frame navigation allows the visitor to quickly jump
from one snippet to another on the same page, and still not lose their
context. If I had not used frames here, the visitor would have had to
keep going back to the top to get to another spot on the same page.

Other useful frame applications are for online stores like MacMall,
where the visitor is again likely looking for disjoint content rather
than for a single topic.

There are drawbacks (the back button, search engines) but there are also
work-arounds.

And it's not just frames that can be misused. Take a look at the
Macromedia site.

--
Hal
http://www.pawluk.com/public/
http://www.tude.com/