Drop Down Menus & Frames

Thierry Koblentz wrote:

Hi Ranjan,
Among other things, this script doesn't offer a "plan B" for JS challenged
browsers and other UAs.
IMO, navigation is a *very* important element that should not just "look
cool".

The sub menus are layers and hence CSS can be used for create a "Plan B"

Murray *TMM* wrote:

Frames are rarely the proper choice.

Again let the designer decide the rarity of the situation

A problem was put forward a solution was given, how the designer uses
the solution is a measure of the designers talent. Please note that my
first line clearly mentions "if you are forced...", as I to believe that
frames are never the right solution in most cases.

However, the persistent character is completely javascript driven. Once the
page has scrolled down, the menu (even CSS ones) will be lost to view, if
javascript is not enabled.

I am not trying to be argumentative here, but to reveal in all its gory
detail why frames are rarely the proper solution. I know that you agree.
The point really is this: who does a service? The one who simply offers a
(short-term and potentially problematic) solution to the original question,
or the one who questions the initial assumptions? I don't know the answer
there, but rather than take the risk of causing the OP lost time in the
process, I usually opt for the latter approach.

--
Murray --- ICQ 71997575
Team Macromedia Volunteer for Dreamweaver
(If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
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"ranjan" <ranjan (AT) NOSPAMdreamlettes (DOT) net> wrote

Thierry Koblentz wrote:

Hi Ranjan,
Among other things, this script doesn't offer a "plan B" for JS
challenged
browsers and other UAs.
IMO, navigation is a *very* important element that should not just "look
cool".



The sub menus are layers and hence CSS can be used for create a "Plan B"

Murray *TMM* wrote:

However, the persistent character is completely javascript driven. Once the
page has scrolled down, the menu (even CSS ones) will be lost to view, if
javascript is not enabled.

CSS visible submenus hidden by javascript can be used on the top frame
and can be revealed only if javascript is disabled. This script can be
less than 500 bytes.

See what I mean about workaround after workaround?

I guess that the OP is simply not up to this level of sophistication. We
may never know.

--
Murray --- ICQ 71997575
Team Macromedia Volunteer for Dreamweaver
(If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
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"ranjan" <ranjan (AT) NOSPAMdreamlettes (DOT) net> wrote

Murray *TMM* wrote:
However, the persistent character is completely javascript driven. Once
the
page has scrolled down, the menu (even CSS ones) will be lost to view,
if
javascript is not enabled.

CSS visible submenus hidden by javascript can be used on the top frame
and can be revealed only if javascript is disabled. This script can be
less than 500 bytes.

Murray *TMM* wrote:

See what I mean about workaround after workaround?

Do you say no to CSS layouts? If you don't let stop looking at these as
workarounds....

We are making too many assumptions about the end use of the menu. we are
all clear

1. Frames are bad
2. Drop down menus with frames can be used

Lets leave the rest to the designer.

The sub menus are layers and hence CSS can be used for create a "Plan B"

I'm talking about the script you posted an URI for, not something that has
not been implemented yet.
Does the *existing* script fail or not?

And I'm curious about how one would implement a decent "Plan B" using CSS.
We're talking about AP DIVs that would have to enter somehow into the flow
of the elements without breaking the layout.

Thierry

ranjan wrote:

Thierry Koblentz wrote:
The sub menus are layers and hence CSS can be used for create a "Plan
B"

On 8/1/04 6:00 PM, in article cejsmc$6d4$1 (AT) forums (DOT) macromedia.com, "ranjan"
<ranjan (AT) NOSPAMdreamlettes (DOT) net> wrote:

We are making too many assumptions about the end use of the menu. we are
all clear

1. Frames are bad
2. Drop down menus with frames can be used

Let's try to put this all into perspective.

1) As ranjan said, Frames are bad. They are problematic, even for seasoned
web designers.

2) Dropdown menus are problematic, even for seasoned web designers.

3) There are workarounds that will allow a seasoned web designer to
implement dropdowns that will cross frame borders. But, considering that
both frames and dropdowns present a high potential for problems, by
themselves, to try to implement both together, would not be something that
anyone but a thoroughly seasoned web designer should undertake and then,
only if there is absolutely no other way to do what he is trying to do and
that doesn't even consider the immense maintenance problems that such a
combination is likely to cause, if it is not implemented just right.

I have been writing HTML since before there was a Dreamweaver, FrontPage,
PageMill (anyone remember that one?) or any other visual tool for creating
HTML code. I played with frames when they first became the feature du jour.
I soon became an expert at frames - so much so that I realized that they
were much more trouble than they were worth and have avoided them like the
plague, ever since. As for dropdown menus, even though I am more than
proficient in CSS, I myself had a problem yesterday that stumped me for
several hours.

It's possible to make web pages do all kinds of things that they are not
designed to do. But, the questions that you have to consider are:

1) What do you gain in usability?

2) Does it limit the browsers that can view your site?

3) What level of expertise is required to implement and maintain the kluge?

4) Is there another way to achieve roughly the same thing effect/feature,
without a kluge?

5) Do you really need extra the headaches?

On very, Very, VERY, "VERY" rare occasions, I can imagine that there might
be an argument for frames. There are occasions when dropdown menus are
appropriate. But, I am thoroughly convinced that there is a greater chance
that Ken Lay will be acquitted, than that there exists a case for both
frames and dropdowns on the same page. Even if such a case exists, it's
likely that there is a better and easier way to achieve equivalent features
or functionality, without combining two such problematic technologies. JMHO.

I have to agree with Murray. DROP THE FRAMES! If you are intimately familiar
with CSS, dropdowns might be OK, as long as you keep older browsers in mind.

John Gaver
Action America
(forget everything to contact me direct)

Microsoft: (n) Job security for IT consultants.

Thierry Koblentz wrote:

And I'm curious about how one would implement a decent "Plan B" using
CSS. We're talking about AP DIVs that would have to enter somehow
into the flow of the elements without breaking the layout.

This method would probably work:
http://www.projectseven.com/tutorials/css/writestyles/index.htm


--
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I guess you're right. I'm so against the idea of using popup menus across
frames that I didn't give it a good thought.

May be you should work on a more accessible solution than the ones that
exist already; the OP says that they sell for $250!


Thierry

Al Sparber- PVII wrote:

This method would probably work: