DiMa - this ones for you

#1

I started this in a new thread since it's a topic on its own.

Okay, here's my thing:

I'd like to think even I can learn a thing or two every once in a while.
HTML is like a Zoo to me. But i'm learning, i'm getting there.

My point is, that with the advice you gave me in the Cell dimension
thread you also put down something that for me - as a designer at heart
- is kinda hard to swallow. This is, the fact that certain techniques
used to lay out a page can better not be used because they are only
workable in Internet Exploder. Now, don't get me wrong here - I am not
exactly a fan of Microsoft either. But, a designer always checks his
design first and then starts looking what tools are at his disposal.

I agree wholeheartedly with you that certain 'rules' should not be
broken and that some bigshot corporation like Microsoft has no right to
change the rulebook just because 90% of the world uses its browser
(Okay, so its 80% or whatever). I am just saying - that sometimes it's
nice for designers to hear from people - who powder their nose everyday
with that wonderful HTML odor

, that it is okay to actually THINK as a
designer. And that we can't be blamed for using the wrong tools. I know
you didn't point any fingers at me, I am just trying to let you see
things my way. It's damn frustrating sometimes that my pages - although
looking honkeydorey - are codewise looking like a house with a bad
foundation.
See, people that mostly do code really know most of the rules applicable
to HTML. But for me, when I started with HTML I didn't actually 'start
with HTML' - I started with Dreamweaver. Version 4 to be exact. And what
i'm saying here is, that every once in a while it's nice to hear that
although my code sucks (at best!), I have been looking at my design
'from a designers' perspective.

If I knew all the rules of HTML I wouldn't be using Cell dimensions,
Dreamweaver Layout Mode and the whole tuttifrutti that comes along with
that application. I'm not saying that I want to ignore the Validation
rules, what I am saying is that although I agree with all you say in
your explanation and that of the others - I sometimes have to drop the
design of a site entirely because the code would not be validating
whilst still looking good in most browsers. See? I'm just trying to let
you guys and gals see things through the eyes of a designer! IMHO
Macromedia shouldn't put in all the crap like being able to set Cell
dimensions, because now I have to withdraw from using that method while
i'm already used it for years.
Okay, i'm shifting away from my point which is not what I want. But it
must be added here since it clarifies my point. Designers are given
these tools and we take them at heart but later we are told it is best
not to use them. This to me, makes no sense at all. And this is
Macromedia I am talking about - not some hotshot startup company selling
its first editor on the market.

Does all of this make any sense?

--

Intensily,

Coen Naninck

"If you have a passion for what you do in life, life will become your
passion!"
_______________________________

E-mail : Can be found at: http://members.home.nl/ccnk/mail
================================

Enhance Fireworks with these Productivity Resources:

*** FREESTYLERMX ***

http://freestylermx.net

*** FIREWORKS DEVELOPER CENTER ***

http://www.macromedia.com/devnet/mx/fireworks

#2

In defence of Macromedia they really dont have much choice other than to
include some rather dubious methods of constructing web pages.

To give them some credit they are trying to move towards web standards
without alienating the little guy, from who they get most of their
revenue, who runs a florist and just wants to put up a quick page.

Dreamweaver makes it easy for those categories of people to do that,
without having much knowledge of what they are doing. Ok they wont ever
achieve the pixel perfect design that is achievable by knowing html
inside out but they really dont care.

If youre a seriuos web designer you very quickly get to know that unless
youre prepared to go in 'under the bonnet' and tweak the html you will
never get a page exactly how you want it to look. DW is really a vehicle
to make the mundane aspect of writing html easier, its not perfect
though so you have to help it a little.

#3

Coen Naninck wrote:

Quote:

My point is, that with the advice you gave me in the Cell dimension
thread you also put down something that for me - as a designer at
heart - is kinda hard to swallow. This is, the fact that certain
techniques used to lay out a page can better not be used because they
are only workable in Internet Exploder. Now, don't get me wrong here
- I am not exactly a fan of Microsoft either. But, a designer always
checks his design first and then starts looking what tools are at his
disposal.

First off - I'm a designer first and a coder second

My job in Flying Tiger
is to design a web site visually and then making that visual design work in the
browser by coding the page with (X)HTML. Then it is passed on to Steve, who
implements PHP/CF to make the page work with the database. We're a perfect team
because of the clear definitions of our job. He can design (he's quite good,
actually) and he's a fabulous (X)HTML coder, and I'm getting better w/
databases, but we both do what we love and it works.

Unfortunately, not everyone gets the pleasure of having such a great partner to
pass the buck to. Ideally, you'd be able to create a design and then pass it to
the HTML guy to make it work. But you can't. So now that you're a great
designer, you are taking the time to learn how to make it look right in the
browser yourself.

But can you see that those two things go hand-in-hand? The reason I decided to
immerse myself in good coding practices is precicly because I wanted my designs
to WORK. When they DONT work, I go ballistic (as Steve

. The more
meticulously I write my code, the better my design is. I don't do it for the
sake of the code...or at least I didn't when I started...I do it for the
design. So I know where you're coming from

I just want you to see that to be
a good designer (which you are!) is enhanced by being a good coder, which
you're striving to be. For me, I can't be one without being the other. Just as
I want my designs to be pixel-perfect, I now want my code to be pixel-perfect,
too. Right down to the last space. I'm what some people have called an
OCD-Coder

(Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, if you didn't know). I'm not
saying that I'm perfect - far from. But I TRY to be as perfect as I can be, so
that the design is as perfect as I see it in my mind's eye.

I have been an "artist" from the time I was a small child. I paint, I act, I
sing, I'm a musician, I dance (or used to at least), I write, I write poetry, I
design. It's who I am. I accepted long ago that there were going to be people
who didn't like my style. They would hear one of my songs and say, "It's not my
style," but I wanted to make sure that they all heard the SAME THING. Does that
make sense? If one person was listening to my voice and hearing one thing and
the guy next to him something else, then someone wasn't getting what I intended
for them to hear. They may see me up on stage and say, "that part (or play) is
just not my style," but they can't say, "she's a terrible actress." I make sure
that it comes across the same to one as it does to his neighbour (as much as
possible). I'm not an "arteest" who says, "Zcrew joo, eff joo don't like ma
art, joo eembaceel!"

I am an artist who tries damn hard to convey my
"message", that is, the stuff that flows from inside of me, in the best way
possible to reach as many people as it can.

Is this making sense to you at all?? I hope, as an artist yourself, that it is.

For this reason, I try my hardest to make sure that everyone is at least
getting the same experience. Of course, I can't do that for people who are deaf
or blind when I'm singing or acting or dancing or painting - and I consider NN
4.x the equivalent of Helen Keller

But even Helen could enjoy music and
such. So I make it presentable to her, too, even if it's not the same. I CAN
make it the most similar experience possible in MOST browsers so that I'm not
cheating any of those poor surfers out there of my artistic genius

hehe.
As for Macromedia, they are doing better all the time, I believe. They got rid
of timelines and "apply styles", which is a great start. But they still have to
appeal to the broad public. They don't have to promote GOOD practices, they
have to promote their product to the widest range of people possible - not just
us anal coders

Just remember what I said above, though - as an artist yourself, don't you want
to try your hardest to show the public the stuff that pours out of you?? It's a
compulsion, isn't it? Don't you wake up in the morning after having some vision
in the night of a design in your head and rush to put it down in FW? I do. I
assume you do, too. And if you do, I assume you want us all to see it, too. So
for the sake of your own art...give it the best possible display. Soon, you'll
find that your designs are not impossible to display. They may be difficult,
but not impossible, because your brain will be working on how you'll code it
while you're designing it and your designs will start to meld better with what
can be done, not what can't be without mucking up the code. And when your code
becomes part of your art, you'll get to where I am and will be a happy little
camper :-)

Unless of course the damn thing won't do what you want it to and then you
contemplate tossing the entire computer out the friggin' window!! :-D

--
--
DiMa
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#4

Osgood wrote:

Quote:

To give them some credit they are trying to move towards web standards
without alienating the little guy, from who they get most of their
revenue, who runs a florist and just wants to put up a quick page.

Good point Osgood. This is where people have to draw that magic line
again. Outweigh their option - in this case Macromedia.

Quote:

Dreamweaver makes it easy for those categories of people to do that,
without having much knowledge of what they are doing. Ok they wont ever
achieve the pixel perfect design that is achievable by knowing html
inside out but they really dont care.

If youre a seriuos web designer you very quickly get to know that unless
youre prepared to go in 'under the bonnet' and tweak the html you will
never get a page exactly how you want it to look. DW is really a vehicle
to make the mundane aspect of writing html easier, its not perfect
though so you have to help it a little.

Point well taken. These kind of answers always make me think about my
previous words. Though there is truth in both our visions.

--

Intensily,

Coen Naninck

"If you have a passion for what you do in life, life will become your
passion!"
_______________________________

E-mail : Can be found at: http://members.home.nl/ccnk/mail
================================

Enhance Fireworks with these Productivity Resources:

*** FREESTYLERMX ***

http://freestylermx.net

*** FIREWORKS DEVELOPER CENTER ***

http://www.macromedia.com/devnet/mx/fireworks

#5

Dima, this screams for a reply.

Quote:

But can you see that those two things go hand-in-hand?

Yes, but unfortunately I can only use the hand-in-hand technique on
myself as I work alone "Left hand in Right hand" ;-o

Quote:

When they DONT work, I go ballistic (as Steve

.

Tell me about it! (actually don't LOL!)

Quote:

I don't do it for the
sake of the code...

No DiMa, as Bush would say it > "We do it for the sake of peace!"

Quote:

I'm what some people have called an
OCD-Coder

(Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, if you didn't know)

Well, never heard of THAT one before but i'm sure you know MY one, ADHD. ..

Quote:

I accepted long ago that there were going to be people
who didn't like my style. They would hear one of my songs and say, "It's not my
style," but I wanted to make sure that they all heard the SAME THING. Does that
make sense?

You have no idea how much sense that makes to me - alot! Your words
"move" me. How about this quote:

"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to
please everybody."

Quote:

Is this making sense to you at all?? I hope, as an artist yourself, that it is.

Oh yes! "Mutual understanding" are the words. Or, Mutual sense for that
matter..

Quote:

For this reason, I try my hardest to make sure that everyone is at least
getting the same experience. Of course, I can't do that for people who are deaf
or blind when I'm singing or acting or dancing or painting - and I consider NN
4.x the equivalent of Helen Keller

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!

Quote:

As for Macromedia, they are doing better all the time, I believe. They got rid
of timelines and "apply styles", which is a great start.

Ouch,.. I use a Timeline in Freestylermx.net but 'ere comes Murray to
the rescue and says PVII has this great extension to do the same job. Of
course, I will adapt/adopt.
Murray is really my G.I.-Joe of HTML.

(don't tell him though)

Quote:

But they still have to
appeal to the broad public. They don't have to promote GOOD practices, they
have to promote their product to the widest range of people possible - not just
us anal coders

You can't please everybody in life Dianne. Please remember, this comes
from an ancient Chinese diplomat, that you - in a circle of people
surrounding you - you will ALWAYS turn your back on someone. Don't take
that too litterally, but you 'catch my drift' right?

Quote:

Just remember what I said above, though - as an artist yourself, don't you want
to try your hardest to show the public the stuff that pours out of you?? It's a
compulsion, isn't it?

Yeah, but compulsion is not so bad if your artistic skills have been
surpressed by the very people you call family. Very sad, but true.

Quote:

Don't you wake up in the morning after having some vision
in the night of a design in your head and rush to put it down in FW?

Dianne, you amaze me. Welcome to my definition of "a good night's sleep".
This really is both funny and sad at the same time.

Quote:

I do. I
assume you do, too. And if you do, I assume you want us all to see it, too. So
for the sake of your own art...give it the best possible display. Soon, you'll
find that your designs are not impossible to display. They may be difficult,
but not impossible, because your brain will be working on how you'll code it
while you're designing it and your designs will start to meld better with what
can be done, not what can't be without mucking up the code. And when your code
becomes part of your art, you'll get to where I am and will be a happy little
camper :-)

Actually, if all else fails and no browser seems to swallow my code,
i'll have this one as a 'last resort': The webpage without markup,
inserting an image of a webpage with Hotspots where there are normally
links, and with Alt text saying "Try refusing to render this page your
stupid browser!".

Quote:

Unless of course the damn thing won't do what you want it to and then you
contemplate tossing the entire computer out the friggin' window!! :-D

Been there. Done that.

Dianne, thanks for this, alot! And sorry for my late response. I've been
busy at another thread concerning screenresolutions.
By the way, while were on the subject, did you know that there is a
(dreaded) horizontal scrollbar at 800x600 in your FlyingTiger site?
Please, I don't mean to (as you Americans say it) "rubb your face in
it", but I just noticed it really since my head is once again filled
with everybodies comments on this seemingly 'Hot item'. (See the
Fireworks forum for that one (ANN: Freestylermx.net).

Thanks and bye!

--

Intensily,

Coen Naninck

"If you have a passion for what you do in life, life will become your
passion!"
_______________________________

E-mail : Can be found at: http://members.home.nl/ccnk/mail
================================

Enhance Fireworks with these Productivity Resources:

*** FREESTYLERMX ***

http://freestylermx.net

*** FIREWORKS DEVELOPER CENTER ***

http://www.macromedia.com/devnet/mx/fireworks

#6

Exactly, it's a friggin mess. I'm w/you C.. Something has to be
changed to make it an effective tool, because it's just too confusing to
the beginner, I know a lot of people who wouldn't give this the time of day.

Coen Naninck wrote:

Quote:

I started this in a new thread since it's a topic on its own.

Okay, here's my thing:

I'd like to think even I can learn a thing or two every once in a while.
HTML is like a Zoo to me. But i'm learning, i'm getting there.

My point is, that with the advice you gave me in the Cell dimension
thread you also put down something that for me - as a designer at heart
- is kinda hard to swallow. This is, the fact that certain techniques
used to lay out a page can better not be used because they are only
workable in Internet Exploder. Now, don't get me wrong here - I am not
exactly a fan of Microsoft either. But, a designer always checks his
design first and then starts looking what tools are at his disposal.

I agree wholeheartedly with you that certain 'rules' should not be
broken and that some bigshot corporation like Microsoft has no right to
change the rulebook just because 90% of the world uses its browser
(Okay, so its 80% or whatever). I am just saying - that sometimes it's
nice for designers to hear from people - who powder their nose everyday
with that wonderful HTML odor

, that it is okay to actually THINK as a
designer. And that we can't be blamed for using the wrong tools. I know
you didn't point any fingers at me, I am just trying to let you see
things my way. It's damn frustrating sometimes that my pages - although
looking honkeydorey - are codewise looking like a house with a bad
foundation.
See, people that mostly do code really know most of the rules applicable
to HTML. But for me, when I started with HTML I didn't actually 'start
with HTML' - I started with Dreamweaver. Version 4 to be exact. And what
i'm saying here is, that every once in a while it's nice to hear that
although my code sucks (at best!), I have been looking at my design
'from a designers' perspective.

If I knew all the rules of HTML I wouldn't be using Cell dimensions,
Dreamweaver Layout Mode and the whole tuttifrutti that comes along with
that application. I'm not saying that I want to ignore the Validation
rules, what I am saying is that although I agree with all you say in
your explanation and that of the others - I sometimes have to drop the
design of a site entirely because the code would not be validating
whilst still looking good in most browsers. See? I'm just trying to let
you guys and gals see things through the eyes of a designer! IMHO
Macromedia shouldn't put in all the crap like being able to set Cell
dimensions, because now I have to withdraw from using that method while
i'm already used it for years.
Okay, i'm shifting away from my point which is not what I want. But it
must be added here since it clarifies my point. Designers are given
these tools and we take them at heart but later we are told it is best
not to use them. This to me, makes no sense at all. And this is
Macromedia I am talking about - not some hotshot startup company selling
its first editor on the market.

Does all of this make any sense?

#7

You are a very very very clear and concise communicator DiMa - it's so
evident..

So you ARE a teacher, I knew it.

DiMa wrote:

Quote:

Coen Naninck wrote:

My point is, that with the advice you gave me in the Cell dimension
thread you also put down something that for me - as a designer at
heart - is kinda hard to swallow. This is, the fact that certain
techniques used to lay out a page can better not be used because they
are only workable in Internet Exploder. Now, don't get me wrong here
- I am not exactly a fan of Microsoft either. But, a designer always
checks his design first and then starts looking what tools are at his
disposal.

First off - I'm a designer first and a coder second