CS4 details on Adobe website

"David Powers" wrote:

*Code hinting for Ajax and JavaScript frameworks
Because of the way jQuery and Prototype are structured, the code hints are
less useful than if they were hard-coded.

Agreed

*Related Files and Code Navigator
Score: Good feature - if it can be turned off or modified.

Related Files can be turned off in the General category of Dreamweaver
Preferences (requires the program to be restarted).

That's good

*Adobe InContext Editing (prerelease)
However, unless they are very careful in how they control the editable
regions, I can see this resulting in more maintenance, not less.

I agree

*CSS best practices
The Property inspector for text has two views: HTML and CSS. The CSS view
has a field for "Targeted rule", making it easy to add font-weight,
font-size, font-family, and text-align rules to the targeted rule without
the need to open the style sheet.
The Targeted rule field also lets you create new rules and inline styles.

In other words, it uses the limited assortment of fields from the Property
inspector. It adds yet another way of launching a new rule.

The New CSS Rule dialog box has been improved to give a

description of how the selector will be applied to elements in the page.

As with the Check Browser "feature" in CS3, I imagine this could lead to
confusion with all but CSS masters.

Perhaps most significantly, CS4 no longer creates meaningless .style1,
.style2, .style457 class names.

Good - a nice "fix".

Not huge changes for experienced users, but should help beginners to
create more meaningful style rules.

Perhaps - but perhaps not.

*New User Interface
----------------------
Score: I guess if you really like it you'll consider it a feature.

It's certainly more flexible, but it's not a major feature for me.

Agreed

*HTML data sets
------------------------
The new HTML datasets could be, in my opinion, more efficient. The
content has to be downloaded anyway. Why not structure a page *exactly*
as you want it to appear to search engines and script-disabled user
agents and then use the DOM to "remix" that content if script is enabled?

Score: Too complex for the end result.

That was my initial reaction, too. However, after using it in practice, I
think the new implementation is very easy to use, and a huge improvement
on CS3.

I wasn't talking about ease of use for the Dreamweaver operator. I was
referring to the output as being inefficient in a web page. The approach
itself is flawed.

That said, I believe the features in this release are, in large part,
more like add-ons. If the market balks a little and the number of
upgrades is stagnant, this could be motivation for a truly revolutionary,
ground-up new Dreamweaver within 2 or 2.5 years.

That's the difficulty with a mature product. Most new features are
inevitably add-ons...

Many mature applications have been recast from the ground up at an earlier
age.

The question is whether those add-ons are worth it

to you. In my case, the answer is yes.

No one can argue with you when you put it that way. Well said.

What's likely to be the main consideration in deciding whether to upgrade
is not so much the quality of CS4, but the general economic situation.
Both companies and individuals will be forced to think hard before parting
with cash at this juncture.

Indeed they will.


--
Al Sparber - PVII
http://www.projectseven.com
Fully Automated Menu Systems | Galleries | Widgets
http://www.projectseven.com/go/Elevators

"David Powers" <david (AT) example (DOT) com> wrote

Al Sparber - PVII wrote:
I wasn't talking about ease of use for the Dreamweaver operator. I was
referring to the output as being inefficient in a web page. The approach
itself is flawed.

It depends whether you think the ability to refresh part of a page's
content without reloading the page is worthwhile. The approach taken by
the original Spry demonstrations is deeply flawed, because they relied
entirely on JavaScript to deliver content.

Using an HTML Data Set, I have created a Spry gallery at the following
location:

http://foundationphp.com/dwcs4/spry_table.php

If you visit the page with JavaScript turned off, it links to the original
unstyled table. I make no claims about it being the best or most elegant
way of doing it, but it offers people with minimal coding skills a way of
simulating Ajax techniques. The HTML table is generated dynamically from a
database, so its content automatically updates whenever the database is
updated.

The technique is on the amateurish side and anyone with advanced scripting
ability could have done it better. Perhaps this page will help you
understand the point:
http://www.projectseven.com/testing/...explain-it.htm

I could use your demo page but don't have the time right now so you'll have
to use your imagination as my demo uses the original spry example.
The point is that a mult-billion dollar company should be able to produce a
state-of-the-art solution and html data sets are not. If you think they are,
that's you're right, of course.

Many mature applications have been recast from the ground up at an
earlier age.

Maybe it's time to do it with Dreamweaver. However, I don't think it was
possible this time round, because it would have come too soon after the
Adobe acquisition. Even if the name Dreamweaver had been kept, a program
recast from the ground up would have been seen by many as Adobe "killing"
Dreamweaver.

I think Dreamweaver's real problem is that it's being pulled in
contradictory directions. Some people want a lean, sleek HTML/CSS machine.
Others want a program with extensive server-side features. Even among
those who want server-side support, there's a disagreement over whether
Dreamweaver should attempt to do everything, like ADDT tries to do, or
whether it should be a more sophisticated coding environment.

Jack of all trades, master of none :-)


--
Al Sparber - PVII
http://www.projectseven.com
Fully Automated Menu Systems | Galleries | Widgets
http://www.projectseven.com/go/Elevators

"joeq" <webforumsuser (AT) macromedia (DOT) com> wrote

"we've had to pay through the nose for. "

you did? who forced you?

Some of the Aces paid him a visit and kinda "talked him into it", let's just
say that.


--
Patty Ayers | www.WebDevBiz.com
Free Articles on the Business of Web Development
Web Design Contract, Estimate Request Form, Estimate Worksheet
--

"David Powers" <david (AT) example (DOT) com> wrote

Jack of all trades, master of none :-)

It's certainly a danger that Dreamweaver is courting. But Dreamweaver's
critics seem to want it both ways. If there are no new features, it's a
"maintenance release". If there are new features, they're "unnecessary
add-ons".

I think Adobe has a bear of a job and I don't envy them. However, I do
believe that a candid assessment of quality is what Adobe needs. Since they
have no real competition, pride in workmanship is all that can motivate
them.

An honest review of our little discussion here would indicate that some of
the features being touted need work. As the hated, zero-sum Dreamweaver
ombudsman (from Adobe's perspective), I believe the worst thing that can
happen is for perceived or real experts to give the feature set in DW CS4 a
glowing review. That kind of position does not serve Adobe well.

I have used PhpED, Zend Studio, and Dreamweaver extensively for several
recent projects. Although PhpED and Zend Studio had features that I found
extremely useful for PHP development, Dreamweaver was still the best
all-round program. I have just got hold of Expression Web 2. It looks
pretty good, but it reminds me very much of using Dreamweaver.

If you know as much as I think you do, all you need is a code editor ;-)

Dreamweaver is far from perfect, but I've yet to find anything that beats
it - at least for the things I need it for.

What keeps going round and round in my head is that the time might be coming
when more than 1 type of Dreamweaver might be the balm that soothes. Then
again, I have always gravitated towards specialized tools and equipment.


--
Al Sparber - PVII
http://www.projectseven.com
Fully Automated Menu Systems | Galleries | Widgets
http://www.projectseven.com/go/Elevators

Seems as if the Incontext Editing feature would compete with sales of Contribute... Does this mean that Contribute will be discontinued?

Seems as if the Incontext Editing feature would compete with sales of
Contribute... Does this mean that Contribute will be discontinued?

a. No-one can say at this stage

b. ICE seems to me to be an experiment. See if there's enough demand.
Remember the brief lifespan of Adobe Stock Photos?
http://blogs.adobe.com/jnack/2008/02...stock_pho.html

c. Contribute and ICE do not have identical feature sets.
http://www.adobe.com/products/incont...ng/comparison/

--
Regards

John Waller

@David Blomstrom,

Have you consider trying out beta version of Dw or any of these apps? I would
think only if you try it out for 30 days, it will makes some big difference
with higher efficiency and workflow through using CS4 app(s).

Cheers, DWD

[q]Originally posted by: Newsgroup User
Bruce BFD wrote:

I use MC at work and WP at home. I'm having trouble putting together a
cohesive argument for my boss to pay for the upgrade, and even less for
upgrading my home system. I'm branching into video editing and print at
home,
so I'd have to upgrade to MC and the thought of paying $1600 for the
features
that I could have upgraded under CS3 for much less makes me less than
enthusiastic.

What do MC and WP stand for?

To me, CS5 sounds like a bigger ripoff than CS4. Which isn't to say I
don't appreciate CS4 - in the IT arena, it's probably the best thing
that ever happened to me next to switching to a Mac. If Adobe is a
pseudo-monopoly, it at least deserves credit for producing quality
software, a far cry from Microsoft.

Still, the price tag is pretty steep for non-professionals - and I feel
bad about the way they keep sticking it to Europeans.

It's amazing that they're maintaining their high prices even as the
economy is spiraling out of control. I can't help but wonder if perhaps
they've gone a little too far. Adobe's pricing strategy is only fueling
a growing resentment, associating Adobe with the dreaded term
"monopoly," not good for public relations. I can only assume it's
fueling the competition, as well.

Then again, it's possible that Adobe sees this as its last opportunity
to make a killing. An economic slump will almost certainly impact their
profits, and it could just be a matter of time before the competition
begins to look a little more credible.

Another interesting thing - when I read about Dreamweaver CS4 a few
weeks/months ago, it sounded awesome. It was described as a truly
radical upgrade. But the articles I read today don't sound that exciting
- or am I missing something?

It also irks me that Adobe is making CS4 64-bit for Windows but not
Apple...even though I don't understand the significance. 64-bit programs
simply process faster, right?

In somewhat related news, the netbook revolution is nicely coordinated
with the economic crisis to exert enormous pressure on hardware vendors
to lower prices. With people buying mini laptops for under $500, they
may be even more reluctant to spend five times that much on a software
suite (even if that suite can't be run on a netbook).

Anyway, there are lots of things happening out there. If the Dreamweaver
upgrade is respectable, I might upgrade that program alone. But I'm
thinking of skipping CS4 and waiting for CS5, which I suspect will be
significantly better thatn CS4 and less expensive at the same time.

In fact, it might be kind of pointless for me to upgrade when I haven't
even learned to use CS4 yet. I'm pretty comfortable with Dreamweaver and
Photoshop, which I've used for years, but it's going to take a while to
learn Illustrator, Fireworks and Flash.

I wish there were more than 24 hours in a day!

--
David Blomstrom: PolITics Expert
Bill Gates: A Critical Biography -
http://knol.google.com/k/david-bloms...6e04re3w2kp/4#
[/q]

@Murray,

Likewise!

[q]Originally posted by: Newsgroup User
It certainly helps my workflow.

--
Murray --- ICQ 71997575
Adobe Community Expert
(If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
==================
http://www.projectseven.com/go - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
http://www.dwfaq.com - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
==================


"Al Sparber - PVII" <pviiteam (AT) projectSPAseven (DOT) com> wrote

"David Powers" <david (AT) example (DOT) com> wrote in message
news:gbd4uf$73b$1 (AT) forums (DOT) macromedia.com...
I can only speak about Dreamweaver. I believe CS4 to be the most
significant release since MX in 2002. If you work with external files,
such as style sheets and JavaScript files, the Related Files feature and
Live view will greatly increase your productivity.

Really?

--
Al Sparber - PVII
http://www.projectseven.com
Fully Automated Menu Systems | Galleries | Widgets
http://www.projectseven.com/go/Elevators

[/q]

David Powers wrote:

Al Sparber - PVII wrote:
What keeps going round and round in my head is that the time might be
coming when more than 1 type of Dreamweaver might be the balm that
soothes. Then again, I have always gravitated towards specialized
tools and equipment.

Maybe time to reverse the MX marriage of static and dynamic website
development. UltraDev is dead, long live UltraDev.

Hurrah! This is one thing I really believe should happen.

Dooza

"ICE seems to me to be an experiment. See if there's enough demand.
Remember the brief lifespan of Adobe Stock Photos?
"
All I can say is you are going to have a lot of unhappy people, both clients
and web designers, should they discontinue it... Imagine having to go back and
instantly equip dozens of clients with Contribute or some other basic CMS...