Intrusive DIV scrollbar needs Javascript or CSS to "append"?

SAM wrote:

Le 11/4/09 2:18 PM, Richard Cornford a écrit :
On Nov 3, 6:58 pm, SAM wrote:
[out of topic?]
To scroll, some systems need 2 fingers
(maybe to do not mix with one finger selecting ?)
Probably, but multi-touch is hardware dependent.
And tablets PC no ?

I have no idea what that means.

Like I don't see what tablets can be.

<URL: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tablet_PC >

(most of phones-touch do it with lists)
A PC hardly compares to a phone.
a PC Windows ?
sure !

I have no idea what that means.

No importance.

before it reaches a phone navigation functionalities we'll
have to wait.

More likely the other way around. Until there are word processors
like Word, handwriting based text entry notebook applications
and drawing applications on phones they will not have to deal
with the wider range of user input demands necessary for those
applications.

Right, however not so far the time where cell-phones weren't so
much used.
Since when cellular phones have sensitive screen ?
Their screen grows more and more.

Your point being? The question here is when can a dragging finger be
used for scrolling content and when will be performing some other action
such as selecting text for editing (and so how you scroll through that
text while able to edit it).

What about music, photos, videos, e-mail/web-mail, blogs,
web pages and forms (if not richtext) already usable (+/-) at this
time ?

What about them?

Tomorrow ? web-Word-Draw-and-so applications and web-saves and
certainly full of things we never dreamed.
All that changes so quickly.

Yes, and as they get significantly cheaper (with better built in OS
support, as found in Windows 7) a likely future change is a massive
growth in the use of 'convertible' tablet PCs in place of Notebook and
Laptop PCs.

Even Laptop PCs have proved object lessons in the way assumptions about
how people interact with computers tend to be too influenced by their
own habits. There are plenty who assume that everyone will be using a
mouse to "click" things, to the extent that the words "Click here" are
considered an acceptable instruction to the user. Personally I have
always found the 'pointing devices' built into Laptops (and similar
portable computers) barely adequate/usable, so I haven't been surprised
to observe that many laptop users (and particularly those who touch-type
habitually) learn all of the keyboard shortcuts, and use those to the
exclusion of their built-in pointing devices (so they never "click"
anything). Others carry a mouse about with them, compromising the
portability of the computer to some degree, and making its use dependent
on finding (or carrying) a flat surface to run the mouse on (though
recently Bluetooth mice have removed the need to plug a cable in between
the laptop and the mouse).

The touch screen of a tablet PC offers the use of a much more convenient
'pointing device' (a finger), but with that come some new compromises;
some need for wider scrollbars, taller title bars, larger buttons/icon,
etc. and maybe some layout changes. For a handwriting entry device an
800 x 1200 portrait display has many advantages (how many web designers
are expecting a growth in the use of screens that are only 800 pixels
wide?), and the task bar makes more sense at the top than at the bottom
(so nothing gets accidentally triggered by your palm making contact with
the screen while writing (there are an unreasonable number of
applications that insist on opening their windows at a top = 0 position
and so end up under the task bar as a result).

Richard.

Le 11/5/09 3:06 PM, Richard Cornford a écrit :

SAM wrote:

Like I don't see what tablets can be.

URL: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tablet_PC

I suspected it was something like that ;-)
Just I did not try one.

The question here is when can a dragging finger be
used for scrolling content and when will be performing some other action
such as selecting text for editing (and so how you scroll through that
text while able to edit it).

click -> scroll -> double-click ?

Or, simpler :
down finger, slide it (end of window ? hop! it scrolls) still selection
is OK, up finger.
no ?
I don't see where is the difficulty.
Ha ? to scroll without selecting ? hop! 2 fingers and slide them.

If tablet PC can't do that, bad tablet, change tablet !
(or change system or application)

What about music, photos, videos, e-mail/web-mail, blogs,
web pages and forms (if not richtext) already usable (+/-) at this time ?

What about them?

Some phones (or similar pocket consoles such as iPods and others)
at this day are able to do all that (whom activate menus, choice in
lists, write, selections and so on, all with fingers).
And, eventually, to phone ;-)

Tomorrow ? web-Word-Draw-and-so applications and web-saves and
certainly full of things we never dreamed.
All that changes so quickly.

Yes, and as they get significantly cheaper (with better built in OS
support, as found in Windows 7) a likely future change is a massive
growth in the use of 'convertible' tablet PCs in place of Notebook and
Laptop PCs.

more than 10 years we wait for ...
(at competitive price)
Seems that efforts were on phones, there is now only to port the
experience to tablets.

Even Laptop PCs have proved object lessons in the way assumptions about
how people interact with computers tend to be too influenced by their
own habits. There are plenty who assume that everyone will be using a
mouse to "click" things, to the extent that the words "Click here" are
considered an acceptable instruction to the user. Personally I have
always found the 'pointing devices' built into Laptops (and similar
portable computers) barely adequate/usable,

So I do.
But not my children.
It may be that our time is spent ... :-(

so I haven't been surprised
to observe that many laptop users (and particularly those who touch-type
habitually) learn all of the keyboard shortcuts,

Not false
(at least for older users, youngs can no more write and are not more
than push-buttons, it's not to learn shortcuts)

The touch screen of a tablet PC offers the use of a much more convenient
'pointing device' (a finger), but with that come some new compromises;
some need for wider scrollbars, taller title bars, larger buttons/icon,
etc. and maybe some layout changes. For a handwriting entry device an
800 x 1200 portrait display has many advantages (how many web designers
are expecting a growth in the use of screens that are only 800 pixels
wide?), and the task bar makes more sense at the top than at the bottom
(so nothing gets accidentally triggered by your palm making contact with
the screen while writing (there are an unreasonable number of
applications that insist on opening their windows at a top = 0 position
and so end up under the task bar as a result).

Yes, it begins time that MS thinks to what could be ergonomics.
But it is certainly too late.
(why a task-bar, why has it to be always visible, why an application
can't cover it and then be visible when finger reaches a certain zone,
as right-up corner for instance)(why applications have to bring their
menus in their window? if not it would has been very easy to reserve
there a button for system's menus)(I'm here a bit is the advocacy of the
Apple interface(framework?))

--
sm

SAM wrote:

Le 11/5/09 3:06 PM, Richard Cornford a écrit :
snip
The question here is when can a dragging finger be used for scrolling
content and when will be performing some other
action such as selecting text for editing (and so how you scroll
through that text while able to edit it).

click -> scroll -> double-click ?

Is this a dance?

Or, simpler :
down finger, slide it (end of window ? hop! it scrolls) still
selection is OK, up finger.
no ?
I don't see where is the difficulty.
Ha ? to scroll without selecting ? hop! 2 fingers and slide them.

If tablet PC can't do that, bad tablet, change tablet !
(or change system or application)

My Tablet PC has a built-in accelerometers, so it probably could tell if
I started hopping.

This is all in comparisons to having the scroll bars available in just
using them.

What about music, photos, videos, e-mail/web-mail, blogs,
web pages and forms (if not richtext) already usable (+/-) at
this time ?

What about them?

Some phones (or similar pocket consoles such as iPods and
others) at this day are able to do all that

Do all what? Scrolling content that is just displayed by dragging the
content never was a problem; it is when that interaction represents
editing/modification that a convenient alternative is useful.

(whom activate menus, choice in lists, write, selections and so on,
all with fingers).
And, eventually, to phone ;-)

Tomorrow ? web-Word-Draw-and-so applications and web-saves and
certainly full of things we never dreamed.
All that changes so quickly.

Yes, and as they get significantly cheaper (with better built
in OS support, as found in Windows 7) a likely future change
is a massive growth in the use of 'convertible' tablet PCs in
place of Notebook and Laptop PCs.

more than 10 years we wait for ...
(at competitive price)

It took 30-odd years for electronic computers to become affordable for
the general public.

Seems that efforts were on phones, there is now only to port
the experience to tablets.

I wouldn't be surprised if in reality the technology moved in the other
direction (given that the military were keen on tablet PCs for field
work, and they have large R & D budgets).

Even Laptop PCs have proved object lessons in the way assumptions
about how people interact with computers tend to be too influenced
by their own habits. There are plenty who assume that everyone will
be using a mouse to "click" things, to the extent that the words
"Click here" are considered an acceptable instruction to the user.
Personally I have always found the 'pointing devices' built into
Laptops (and similar portable computers) barely adequate/usable,

So I do.
But not my children.

Give them a chance. Things may look very different to them if they have
to earn a living using a computer.

It may be that our time is spent ... :-(

so I haven't been surprised to observe that many laptop users (and
particularly those who
touch-type habitually) learn all of the keyboard shortcuts,

Not false
(at least for older users, youngs can no more write and are
not more than push-buttons, it's not to learn shortcuts)

The touch screen of a tablet PC offers the use of a much more
convenient 'pointing device' (a finger), but with that come some
new compromises; some need for wider scrollbars, taller title
bars, larger buttons/icon, etc. and maybe some layout changes.
For a handwriting entry device an 800 x 1200 portrait display
has many advantages (how many web designers are expecting a growth
in the use of screens that are only 800 pixels wide?), and the
task bar makes more sense at the top than at the bottom (so nothing
gets accidentally triggered by your palm making contact
with the screen while writing (there are an unreasonable number
of applications that insist on opening their windows at a top =
0 position and so end up under the task bar as a result).

Yes, it begins time that MS thinks to what could be ergonomics.

Microsoft certainly has some odd ideas about ergonomics (you use a
button ladled "Start"£ when you want to shut the computer down).

But it is certainly too late.
(why a task-bar, why has it to be always visible,

It doesn't have to be visible, that is a user setting. I use mine a lot,
so I want it visible.

why an application can't cover it

That is a user setting, and as I want it visible I don't want
applications covering it.

and then be visible when finger reaches a certain zone, as right-up
corner for instance)

If the task bar is at the top of the screen then the top-right corner of
a window under it will not be accessible.

(why applications have to bring their menus in their window? if not it
would has been very easy
to reserve there a button for system's menus)

I have no idea what that is supposed to mean.

(I'm here a bit is the advocacy of the Apple interface(framework?))

I have noticed that.

Richard.