I need a consensus (HTML - CSS)

I am trying to learn HTML and have obtained several books on the
subject. However, I am confused with the proper way of going about it
as most of these books give me the basic tags and then say they will
soon be deprecated and advise using CSS stylesheets. Which comes first?
Do I learn the old tags and then "upgrade" to CSS or just bypass the
old tags and learn only the CSS procedures. Doesn't one have to
understand the old tags to use the new?

Also, there are plenty of books and online examples on how to build web
pages using HTML. There are also plenty of books and online examples on
how to create CSS stylesheets. But, I have yet to see any books on how
to begin creating a website using ONLY CSS stylesheets without using
the "deprecated" code.

Insight anyone?

(Remove the .1354XT in the email below)

sign.up.email.1354XT (AT) comcast (DOT) net

sonnystarks wrote:

I am trying to learn HTML and have obtained several books on the
subject. However, I am confused with the proper way of going about it
as most of these books give me the basic tags and then say they will
soon be deprecated and advise using CSS stylesheets. Which comes first?
Do I learn the old tags and then "upgrade" to CSS or just bypass the
old tags and learn only the CSS procedures. Doesn't one have to
understand the old tags to use the new?

You need to distinguish two things: structure and presentation. HTML is
all about structuring your text: marking up lists, headers, links, etc.
CSS is about the way these things look: using diamonds as list markers,
displaying headers in another font, and making hyperlinks pink, if you
wish.

The remark that tags will soon be deprectaed only applies to those tags
that should never have been part of HTML in the first place, since
they're about presentation rather that structure: <font>, <center> etc.

Author your HTML such that it looks acceptable without any styles
applied. Then add styling with CSS.

But, I have yet to see any books on how
to begin creating a website using ONLY CSS stylesheets without using
the "deprecated" code.

That's because you can't write a site with only CSS. CSS is for
styling, and if there's nothing to style, you have no website. CSS does
not supersede HTML, it merely helps you make your pages look (or sound
or, in the remote future, feel) nice.

--
Garmt de Vries.

sonnystarks wrote:

I am trying to learn HTML and have obtained several books on the
subject. However, I am confused with the proper way of going about it
as most of these books give me the basic tags and then say they will
soon be deprecated and advise using CSS stylesheets. Which comes first?
Do I learn the old tags and then "upgrade" to CSS or just bypass the
old tags and learn only the CSS procedures. Doesn't one have to
understand the old tags to use the new?

You need html (xhtml isn't really mainstream yet - best left).
I'd recommend 4.01 strict ideally, or 4.01 transitional if & when you
feel the need. Use a full doctype
(http://www.htmlhelp.com/tools/validator/doctype.html), as most browsers
use this to decide whether to render in standard or quirks mode - quirks
mode is best avoided.
For styling, you need css.

Also, there are plenty of books and online examples on how to build web
pages using HTML. There are also plenty of books and online examples on
how to create CSS stylesheets. But, I have yet to see any books on how
to begin creating a website using ONLY CSS stylesheets without using
the "deprecated" code.

Insight anyone?

Test as you go along (mozilla or firefox is good for this, as they're
fairly standards compliant).
Also validate your html and css using the various validators:
http://validator.w3.org/
http://www.htmlhelp.com/tools/validator/
When it's valid, good-looking, and complete, then try other browsers
you'd like to support - most shouldn't have any trouble with valid code.
Those that do are:
all versions of internet explorer (probably most of your visitors),
netscape4 (debatable how much support effort is worthwhile).
safari can have problems with dynamic pages (javascript).

It may seem eccentric to leave the most popular browser out until the
end, but because every version has its own quirks, it's easy to get
bogged down in all kinds of complications, and wind up with a page that
works nowhere except explorer (is this the microsoft master plan? .
Best to build a completely standards compliant page, and then tweak
slightly as necessary. If you have problems with that, this group will
be happy to help.
If you go the other way, starting with explorer, you'll be making work
for yourself, and won't get a lot of sympathy here.

netscape4 is relatively rare these days - you may decide you're not
willing to bother with it at all, or you may use a css hiding technique
(use google to find these) to hide some or all css from it. Again
though, you must test after every change - it's very easy to break it
with a single line of css, so it displays nothing at all. The goal
should be "graceful degradation" - to display the content in readable
form without worrying about making it perfectly pretty.

Tables - are good for presenting tabular information. They're not
intended for positioning every pixel on your page - that's presentation,
and it's done by css.

Chris

sonnystarks wrote:

I am trying to learn HTML and have obtained several books on the
subject. However, I am confused with the proper way of going about it
as most of these books give me the basic tags and then say they will
soon be deprecated and advise using CSS stylesheets. Which comes first?
Do I learn the old tags and then "upgrade" to CSS or just bypass the
old tags and learn only the CSS procedures. Doesn't one have to
understand the old tags to use the new?

Also, there are plenty of books and online examples on how to build web
pages using HTML. There are also plenty of books and online examples on
how to create CSS stylesheets. But, I have yet to see any books on how
to begin creating a website using ONLY CSS stylesheets without using
the "deprecated" code.

Insight anyone?

I can't find anything in your message that expands on your claim that
you need a consensus. A consensus is something you're not likely to find
on Usenet!

Thank you for your reply. Yours was the most insightful so far and has
encouraged me to continue onward. My next question is :Can you refer me
to a specific web page that has only the "necessary HTML," (linked to a
CSS stylesheet) so that I might "View source" to further understand
your reply?

Thanx,
Sonny


Garmt de Vries wrote:

sonnystarks wrote:
I am trying to learn HTML and have obtained several books on the
subject. However, I am confused with the proper way of going about it
as most of these books give me the basic tags and then say they will
soon be deprecated and advise using CSS stylesheets. Which comes first?
Do I learn the old tags and then "upgrade" to CSS or just bypass the
old tags and learn only the CSS procedures. Doesn't one have to
understand the old tags to use the new?

You need to distinguish two things: structure and presentation. HTML is
all about structuring your text: marking up lists, headers, links, etc.
CSS is about the way these things look: using diamonds as list markers,
displaying headers in another font, and making hyperlinks pink, if you
wish.

The remark that tags will soon be deprectaed only applies to those tags
that should never have been part of HTML in the first place, since
they're about presentation rather that structure: <font>, <center> etc.

Author your HTML such that it looks acceptable without any styles
applied. Then add styling with CSS.

But, I have yet to see any books on how
to begin creating a website using ONLY CSS stylesheets without using
the "deprecated" code.

That's because you can't write a site with only CSS. CSS is for
styling, and if there's nothing to style, you have no website. CSS does
not supersede HTML, it merely helps you make your pages look (or sound
or, in the remote future, feel) nice.

--
Garmt de Vries.

Thus far, the consensus I have received has been exceptional! Insight
from three different individuals (I could still use more) is truly
invaluable than accepting one person's opinion as gospel. I would
appreciate your insight on the question as well.

Thanx,
Sonny

Thank you, Chris. Your insight on different browers and their quirks is
most helpful.

Sonny

sonnystarks wrote:

Thank you for your reply. Yours was the most insightful so far and has
encouraged me to continue onward. My next question is :Can you refer me
to a specific web page that has only the "necessary HTML," (linked to a
CSS stylesheet) so that I might "View source" to further understand
your reply?

Feel free to look around at www.jules-verne.nl, a site that I maintain.
But if you're new to all this, and you don't want to lose yourself in
all kinds of details, you had better find yourself a suitable tutorial.

Good luck!

--
Garmt de Vries.

In article <1136627509.672822.18830 (AT) g43g2000cwa (DOT) googlegroups.com>,
Garmt de Vries <g.devries (AT) phys (DOT) uu.nl> wrote:

sonnystarks wrote:
Thank you for your reply. Yours was the most insightful so far and has
encouraged me to continue onward. My next question is :Can you refer me
to a specific web page that has only the "necessary HTML," (linked to a
CSS stylesheet) so that I might "View source" to further understand
your reply?

Feel free to look around at www.jules-verne.nl, a site that I maintain.
But if you're new to all this, and you don't want to lose yourself in
all kinds of details, you had better find yourself a suitable tutorial.

I found the tutorial at w3.org helpful:

<http://www.w3.org/Style/LieBos2e/enter/>

- it's an excerpt from a book by Lie and Bos, "Cascading Style Sheets,
designing for the web". Lots of other good resources on that site (!)

The only thing I remember that was not well explained in that excerpt
was the use of "solid white" vs "white" for borders, but maybe that is
discussed elsewhere in the original book (which I should probably look
for...)

"sonnystarks" <sign.up.email (AT) comcast (DOT) net> wrote in
news:1136608112.129672.99230 (AT) o13g2000cwo (DOT) googlegroups.com:

Thank you, Chris. Your insight on different browers and their quirks
is most helpful.

As someone else pointed out, you'll never get a "consensus" on usenet.
Some opinions, yes; some very insightful opinions, yes; but consensus
means all agree and on usenet, that'll never happen.

The next thing I'd like to point out to Sonny is that you need to
learn proper posting style if you are going to continue posting on
usenet. Note how I left some of your message so that all would know
who/what I am replying to. Many of us don't use google so don't see
things the way you do.

I also found Chris' post very good as a discussion of seperating
content from layout and browser quirks. Good post. In another of
Sonny's replies, I also noted that he'd like to see some more sites
that properly seperate content and layout. I can't say that I'm the
best at it; I'm sure some can/will find some faults, but feel free to
look over my sites listed at http://surecann.com/ and if you really
want to see something, keep watch on http://alamo.nmsu.edu/ over this
year as it gets a total facelift changing from table layout and tag
soup to strict XHTML.

A note on the use of the XHTML. That decision was not mine and is due
to later incorporating much of the website into a CMS that uses
XML/XHTML from what I am told. My other sites will stay HTML 4.01
strict as there is no need for XML/XHTML.

--
Stan McCann "Uncle Pirate" http://stanmccann.us/pirate.html
Webmaster/Computer Center Manager, NMSU at Alamogordo
http://alamo.nmsu.edu/ There are 10 kinds of people.
Those that understand binary and those that don't.