alternative to FrontPage please

#11

"Blinky the Shark" <no.spam (AT) box (DOT) invalid> wrote

Quote:

C A Upsdell wrote:

MS replaced FP with Expression Web, and it is supposed to be much better
in terms of producing valid code. If you have FP I think you can just
pay the upgrade price to get EW.

Based on MS's past/present apps that generate markup, "EW" is probably an
excellent name for their latest attempt. It would be even better if they
went the Yahoo! way with "EW!"

Lol. I am reminded of the worse than usual Windows ME of some years ago. I

use to say its name in the same context someone would say Fudge me or Screw
me.

Bergamot correctly noticed I am not asking for WYSIWYG but for site
management features.

#12

The Bicycling Guitarist wrote:

Quote:

I am not asking for WYSIWYG but for site management features.

AIUI, FrontPage actually has some pretty good tools in this area. As
long as you aren't using it for code editing, I don't see a big need to
switch to something else. There may come a time when that becomes
necessary, but I don't think there's any rush.

Dreamweaver has all kinds of similar tools, but is pricey. Someone
mentioned Expression Web as the next generation FP, which is probably
worth looking into.

Something like Kompozer is totally inadequate for a site as large as yours.

--
Berg

#13

Bergamot wrote:

Quote:

The Bicycling Guitarist wrote:
I am not asking for WYSIWYG but for site management features.

AIUI, FrontPage actually has some pretty good tools in this area. As
long as you aren't using it for code editing, I don't see a big need to
switch to something else. There may come a time when that becomes
necessary, but I don't think there's any rush.

Dreamweaver has all kinds of similar tools, but is pricey. Someone
mentioned Expression Web as the next generation FP, which is probably
worth looking into.

Something like Kompozer is totally inadequate for a site as large as yours.

I use CrimsonEditor that keeps my markup clean ;-) But has no site
management. The WSFTP Pro that I use has sync function to synchronize
the live online sites with local development sites. Xenu works well for
finding bad or broken links. Maybe a handful of specialized tools would
be better than using a WYSIWYG editor just for the site management
features.

--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com

#14

On 4 fév, 03:45, "The Bicycling Guitarist"
<Ch... (AT) TheBicyclingGuitarist (DOT) net> wrote:

Quote:

I know and have known for years that MS FrontPage is bad for generating
invalid code. Nonetheless I found it handy-dandy for managing my website
because I could drag a flie from one folder to another and it would
automagically rewrite all hyperlinks in other pages pointing to that file.
It also is good for site summaries, checking hyperlinks, etc.

Is there something out there besides FrontPage that is so handy-dandy
automagical for managing websites? I am more than willing to leave FrontPage
if there is.

Hello,

First, the best solution is always hand-coded webpages by using an
advanced text editors. An WYSIWYG HTML editor will always involve a
number of well known and well documented problems:
- table layout design
- bloated markup code: e.g.:
<CENTER><DIV ALIGN=CENTER> </DIV></CENTER>
see Cleaning Up After WYSIWYG Editors
http://webtips.dan.info/wysiwyg.html (a bit outdated but still pretty
much true)
- unexpected and unrequested huge number of and  
- dependence to the WYSIWYG HTML editor in a sense that you can not
upgrade or modify the webpage easily without the generating WYSIWYG
HTML editor originally used
- absence of HTML Tidy: all of them do not have HTML Tidy built-in.
KompoZer 0.7.10 has the ability to add the extension HandCoder 0.3.4
with the latest HTML Tidy (January 25th 2008)
- dependence on a specific rendering engine and not on web standards
compliance
http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs...YG_HTML_editor
- only a few have an ability to submit the webpage to an online HTML
validator; none of them have a built-in HTML validator and/or a built-
in CSS validator

You have to consider the price too:
- latest DreamWeaver version is $399 US
- MS-Web Expression is $99 US

Again, the best alternative to a WYSIWYG HTML editor is hand code with
an advanced text editor (there are lots of good ones, all free, open-
source ones) and to learn the best coding techniques regarding HTML,
CSS, webpage design, accessibility: a software will never do that
well.

If you still prefer a WYSIWYG HTML editor, then I recommend

KompoZer 0.7.10
http://www.kompozer.net/

with HandCoder 0.3.4
http://fabiwan.kenobi.free.fr/HandCoder/

with latest HTML Tidy (January 25th 2008)
http://www.paehl.com/open_source/?HTML_Tidy_for_Windows

Here are my HTML Tidy settings when I use it:
--char-encoding latin1 --clean yes --doctype strict --drop-font-tags
yes --drop-proprietary-attributes yes --enclose-block-text yes --
enclose-text yes --indent auto --logical-emphasis yes --output-html
yes --replace-color yes --show-warnings no --wrap 76 --write-back yes

and to follow the KompoZer User Guide by Charles Cooke:

http://www.charlescooke.me.uk/web/
http://www.charlescooke.me.uk/web/kz-ug-home.htm

Some reading:
Using Web Standards in your Web Pages:Benefits of using web standards
http://developer.mozilla.org/en/docs..._web_standards

List of web design tips and resources for Nvu users: basically CSS
webpage templates, what to avoid, how to do things, recommendable
coding techniques, etc.
http://www.gtalbot.org/NvuSection/NvuWebDesignTips/

Regards, Gérard

#15

On 5 fév, 19:02, Bergamot <berga... (AT) visi (DOT) com> wrote:

Quote:

macruzq wrote:

[re: Seamonkey as a web site management tool]
at least give it a try. Then make your own conclusions.

Neither Seamonkey nor Kompozer has any site management features remotely
resembling what the OP asked about. BTW, "WYSIWYG" has nothing to do
with it, either.

--
Berg

Berg,

I agree with you that Nvu 1.0 and KompoZer 0.7.10 site management is
not that good. Charles Cooke and I recommend to use FireFTP 0.97 or
FileZilla 3.0.6 as FTP programs:

http://www.charlescooke.me.uk/web/ugs10.htm#s103

http://www.gtalbot.org/NvuSection/Gu...on10.html#s103

KompoZer's development roadmap:
* 0.7 branch: fix most of the CSS editor's bugs;
* 0.8 branch: implement a decent site manager;

http://www.kompozer.net/about/

Regards, Gérard

#16

On 6 fév, 08:16, Bergamot <berga... (AT) visi (DOT) com> wrote:

Quote:

Someone
mentioned Expression Web as the next generation FP, which is probably
worth looking into.

Something like Kompozer is totally inadequate for a site as large as yours..

Berg,

Just a few quick comments. I tried MS Web Expression when it was in
beta. What I didn't like is that you still could choose the type of
rendering, at least for CSS, which did make it a non-web-standards-
compliant HTML editor. Microsoft has to fix its IE browser and then
stop for good, stop forever offering a CSS IE engine in authoring
tools like MS-Web Expression.

KompoZer inadequate for large site? I don't know... I'm not sure I
agree. KompoZer 0.7.10 with FileZilla 3.0.6, with HandCoder 0.3.4,
with latest HTML Tidy (January 25th 2008), with an advanced text
editor makes it a very potent, very capable, quite powerful WYSIWYG
HTML editor.

Regards, Gérard

--
Internet Explorer 7 bugs
http://www.gtalbot.org/BrowserBugsSection/MSIE7Bugs/

#17

On 6 fév, 09:36, "Jonathan N. Little" <lws4... (AT) central (DOT) net> wrote:

Quote:

Maybe a handful of specialized tools would
be better than using a WYSIWYG editor just for the site management
features.

Exactly what I think too. There is no WYSIWYG HTML editor which is
fully recommendable, complete by itself and affordable (open-source,
cross-platform, free, truly web-standards-compliant, meeting ATAG 1.0
recommendations, etc). So, best is to use specialized tools and to
combine their usage.

Regards, Gérard

#18

On 6 fév, 08:16, Bergamot <berga... (AT) visi (DOT) com> wrote:

Quote:

Something like Kompozer is totally inadequate for a site as large as yours..

I took assignement of bug 151557 at Mozilla
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=151557

and I've been using KompoZer with HandCoder 0.3.4 with latest HTML
Tidy on a regular basis for fixing hundreds of webpages (from bug
360039, bug 389104, and many webpages) and I can assure you that
KompoZer's Markup Cleaner feature is quite powerful... along with
HandCoder and an advanced text editor make it very powerful, very
reliable and very efficient at fixing a great number of bad markup
code.

I have fixed a webpage that had 41652 validation markup errors
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bu...id=151557#c152
in 1 hour thanks to KompoZer and the mentioned tools.

Regards, Gérard

#19

GTalbot wrote:

Quote:

On 5 fév, 19:02, Bergamot <berga... (AT) visi (DOT) com> wrote:

Neither Seamonkey nor Kompozer has any site management features remotely
resembling what the OP asked about.

I agree with you that Nvu 1.0 and KompoZer 0.7.10 site management is
not that good. Charles Cooke and I recommend to use FireFTP 0.97 or
FileZilla 3.0.6 as FTP programs:

FTP is not site management.

Quote:

KompoZer's development roadmap:
* 0.7 branch: fix most of the CSS editor's bugs;
* 0.8 branch: implement a decent site manager;

That list has been out there for years. There's been no active
development on Kompozer for a long time now.

I'm not really knocking Kompozer - it is an OK tool for a small site -
but it's totally inadequate for the OP.

--
Berg

#20

GTalbot wrote:

Quote:

On 6 fév, 08:16, Bergamot <berga... (AT) visi (DOT) com> wrote:

Something like Kompozer is totally inadequate for a site as large as yours.

KompoZer inadequate for large site? I don't know... I'm not sure I
agree. KompoZer 0.7.10 with FileZilla 3.0.6, with HandCoder 0.3.4,
with latest HTML Tidy (January 25th 2008), with an advanced text
editor makes it a very potent, very capable, quite powerful WYSIWYG
HTML editor.

The OP is not looking for an editor, WYSIWYG or otherwise. He's looking
for site management tools, of which Kompozer has none.

--
Berg