What's acceptable for paragraphs?

In article <3fdcce39$0$14963$61fed72c (AT) news (DOT) rcn.com> in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.stylesheets, Neal wrote:

"Stan Brown" <the_stan_brown (AT) fastmail (DOT) fm> wrote in message
news:MPG.1a454d13fa958fd098b956 (AT) news (DOT) odyssey.net...
Could you please enlighten me by citing the section of the CSS spec
from which you conclude that

No, but I gladly enlighten you to a recent post where I admit I was in
error.

"Spoke like a gentleman, sir!"

When I posted my comment, your retraction had not yet reached my
site.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com/
HTML 4.01 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/
validator: http://validator.w3.org/
CSS 2 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/
2.1 changes: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/changes.html
validator: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/

Brian wrote:

I do agree that <p>&nbsp;</p> is silly. That should be a div.

Equally silly, use margins.

I'll confess to using it to ensure that a block level element whose
contents are floated is given vertical space in the rendering.
Margins do not always work, since the floated element is taken out of
the normal document flow.

You want to float an element and ensure that the content that follows
next is positioned beneath the float? (then why float?)

Moreover, without a cleared element,
borders (taking just one example) are not rendered around the block in
certain browsers.

Huh? Example please.

--
Spartanicus

Brian wrote:

I do agree that <p>&nbsp;</p> is silly. That should be a div.

Equally silly, use margins.

I'll confess to using it to ensure that a block level element
whose contents are floated is given vertical space in the
rendering. Margins do not always work, since the floated element
is taken out of the normal document flow.

You want to float an element and ensure that the content that
follows next is positioned beneath the float? (then why float?)

No. (Where did you get that idea?) I want to float an element, and
set a margin between it and whatever element comes below it.

I still don't follow, why would that require something as silly as
<div>&nbsp;</div>?

Moreover, without a cleared element, borders (taking just one
example) are not rendered around the block in certain browsers.

Huh? Example please.

http://www.tsmchughs.com/menus/dinner-float-test
View it in MSIE 5.0/Win2k. Compare with
http://www.tsmchughs.com/menus/dinner

And this relates to using <div>&nbsp;</div> how?

--
Spartanicus

Brian wrote:

What's with the chip on your shoulder? Adding <div>&nbsp;</div> and
clearing that div will change the borders.

Possibly, and <br><br><br><br><br> will create vertical space, both are
bad coding practices, and that is what is being pointed out here.

--
Spartanicus

Brian wrote:

What's with the chip on your shoulder? Adding <div>&nbsp;</div> and
clearing that div will change the borders.

Spartanicus <me (AT) privacy (DOT) net> wrote:

Possibly, and <br><br><br><br><br> will create vertical space, both are
bad coding practices, and that is what is being pointed out here.

I notice that Lynx has an option to treat multiple <br> elements as a
single one. Quite useful at dealing with crappily authored sites.

--
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may be only temporary. Reply to usenet postings in the same place as
you read the message you're replying to.

This message was sent without a virus, please delete some files yourself.

"Spartanicus" <me (AT) privacy (DOT) net> wrote

Possibly, and <br><br><br><br><br> will create vertical space, both are
bad coding practices, and that is what is being pointed out here.

Then what do you recommend an author do when he's floating something and
wants more space under the float before the other element begins to wrap
under it?

Neal wrote:

Possibly, and <br><br><br><br><br> will create vertical space, both are
bad coding practices, and that is what is being pointed out here.

Then what do you recommend an author do when he's floating something and
wants more space under the float before the other element begins to wrap
under it?

Specify a margin.

Btw, elements don't wrap.

--
Spartanicus

"Spartanicus" <me (AT) privacy (DOT) net> wrote

Specify a margin.

Prev poster says sometimes that is not to be relied on. It's likely common
knowledge I'm just learning this layout thing, so are you saying it can be
counted on?

Btw, elements don't wrap.

My error is likely one of terminology. One good reason to float is so that
content can eventually flow under the floated element, as in a photo inset
into a column of text. But I'm sure you know that.

That's the phenomenon I was referring to.

Neal wrote:

Specify a margin.

Prev poster says sometimes that is not to be relied on.

Back up in the thread a bit and you'll notice that he did not back up
that claim when asked.

Btw, elements don't wrap.

My error is likely one of terminology. One good reason to float is so that
content can eventually flow under the floated element, as in a photo inset
into a column of text. But I'm sure you know that.

That's the phenomenon I was referring to.

Right, content can wrap.

--
Spartanicus

Brian wrote:

Back up in the thread a bit and you'll notice that he did not back up
that claim when asked.

Here you go, Spartanicus:

http://www.tsmchughs.com/test/float-margin

http://www.tsmchughs.com/test/float-margin-with-div

It's common courtesy to make a minimized test case if you want others to
look at your code. I don't have the time to traverse through non
minimized code, but I suggest that you read up on floats and adjacent
margins, a quote from the spec:

The margins of floating boxes never collapse with margins of adjacent boxes.

I seem to remember that Moz had (has?) a bug relating to the above rule,
trying to circumvent that bug by introducing superfluous html is a
fundamentally flawed strategy.

--
Spartanicus