Table border and CSS

dorayme wrote:

There is a rather good 'semantic argument' to use an HTML set border,
it has always struck me that borders on tables are rather important to
understand the meaning of the data. The borders stay (if not set to
zero in the HTML) if CSS is off.

Good point. I routinely use border="1" for data tables, then override it
with a set of CSS rules. In fact, I think the reason why it is not a default
is that the specs writers and browser vendors thought that most tables will
be for layout, and then borders usually aren't desirable.

It has always
seemed to me that having no borders on tables is a positive
presentational decision.

I don't quite understand, even though you gave a hint on potential
absurdity.

--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/

Rob W. wrote:

Chris F.A. Johnson schreef:
On 2009-07-03, Jukka K. Korpela wrote:
Biff wrote:

I think Yukka must be working from an undisclosed location.
Try using my real name or my nickname, not a spelling you invented,
and maybe I'll stop calling you Biff.

Which is your real name? The one in the From: line (Yukka) or the
one in your sig (Yucca)?



You might want to buy a box of tissues
to clean your screen.

It is sometimes difficult to see clearly when Jukka “Yucca” Korpela

displays his impaired interpersonal skills. However, once one has
mastered the are of ignoring the static, they can usually find some
useful information in his replies. You don't have to like him to
appreciate him.

William Gill schreef:

Rob W. wrote:
Chris F.A. Johnson schreef:
On 2009-07-03, Jukka K. Korpela wrote:
Biff wrote:

I think Yukka must be working from an undisclosed location.
Try using my real name or my nickname, not a spelling you invented,
and maybe I'll stop calling you Biff.

Which is your real name? The one in the From: line (Yukka) or the
one in your sig (Yucca)?



You might want to buy a box of tissues
to clean your screen.

It is sometimes difficult to see clearly when Jukka “Yucca” Korpela
displays his impaired interpersonal skills. However, once one has
mastered the are of ignoring the static, they can usually find some
useful information in his replies. You don't have to like him to
appreciate him.

This was about Chris not being able to tell a J from a Y.

In article <%nK3m.20297$vi5.7727 (AT) uutiset (DOT) elisa.fi>,
"Jukka K. Korpela" <jkorpela (AT) cs (DOT) tut.fi> wrote:

dorayme wrote:

There is a rather good 'semantic argument' to use an HTML set border,
it has always struck me that borders on tables are rather important to
understand the meaning of the data. The borders stay (if not set to
zero in the HTML) if CSS is off.

... I think the reason why it is not a default
is that the specs writers and browser vendors thought that most tables will
be for layout, and then borders usually aren't desirable.

Yes, that is what I was thinking but could not prove.

It has always
seemed to me that having no borders on tables is a positive
presentational decision.

I don't quite understand, even though you gave a hint on potential
absurdity.

I meant something quite simple and not that different to the semantic
argument I referred to. In fact, your explanation of the motivations of
the specs writers and browser vendors is the point. To leave off borders
is a presentational decision, if they had communication and semantics in
mind, a border (*usually*, this is the point) helps a lot to see the
relationships that are meant to be seen in what is often called here a
real 'tabular' affair.

--
dorayme

Rob W. wrote:

William Gill schreef:
Rob W. wrote:
Chris F.A. Johnson schreef:
On 2009-07-03, Jukka K. Korpela wrote:
Biff wrote:

I think Yukka must be working from an undisclosed location.
Try using my real name or my nickname, not a spelling you invented,
and maybe I'll stop calling you Biff.

Which is your real name? The one in the From: line (Yukka) or the
one in your sig (Yucca)?



You might want to buy a box of tissues
to clean your screen.

It is sometimes difficult to see clearly when Jukka “Yucca” Korpela
displays his impaired interpersonal skills. However, once one has
mastered the are of ignoring the static, they can usually find some
useful information in his replies. You don't have to like him to
appreciate him.



This was about Chris not being able to tell a J from a Y.

Or a couple of c'c from a couple of k's. Do you think there may be any
relationship between Mr. Korpela's name and his nickname?

"...sometimes difficult to see clearly..."
I don't know about you (or Chris), but I make more mistakes reading (and
typing) when I'm "seeing red." Hell, I have enough trouble when I'm
not, otherwise I might have typed "...mastered the art..." instead of
"...mastered the are..."

William Gill schreef:

Rob W. wrote:


This was about Chris not being able to tell a J from a Y.


Or a couple of c'c from a couple of k's. Do you think there may be any
relationship between Mr. Korpela's name and his nickname?

You don't read very well, do you.
Actually Chris got the c's and the k's just right,
k's in the From-line and c's in the sig. But he spelled Yukka instead of
Jukka.


That's one of the things I appreciate in Jukka's posts;
he likes to take things literally and he's good with specifications.

--
Rob

Rob W. wrote:

William Gill schreef:
Rob W. wrote:


This was about Chris not being able to tell a J from a Y.


Or a couple of c'c from a couple of k's. Do you think there may be
any relationship between Mr. Korpela's name and his nickname?




You don't read very well, do you.
Actually Chris got the c's and the k's just right,
k's in the From-line and c's in the sig. But he spelled Yukka instead of
Jukka.

And you obviously don't think very well, do you. I saw the differences
and the similarities, as well as the numerous ways the mistake could be
made.

I could conceivably be convinced to have Chris banished for his sin, as
you seem to support, but then I would miss his frequent contribution,
and valued perspective. Maybe we could just make him wear a scarlet
letter, but then how would that work in a NG?

That's one of the things I appreciate in Jukka's posts;
he likes to take things literally and he's good with specifications.

It is what I appreciate in him also, but I recognize that outside of
mathematics it is difficult to find anything as rigid, exacting, and
uncompromising as those who can only see things from their own
(frequently narrow) perspective. I have seen many that fit this mold,
and unfortunately have seen most of them assume the worst in others. I
have as yet never seen any achieve the level of infallibility in
themselves, that they castigate others for lacking. That includes Jukka
“Yucca” Korpela.

In one previous life I was an engineer. Many of my contemporaries
believed in the absolutes of their work, "I works that way because
that's how I designed it to work." I however choose to spend more time
in the field examining the differences between the imperfect environment
in which the equipment actually operated, and the perfect environment of
the drawing table. My stuff always worked, because "That's how I
adapted the design to work."

So when I need an exacting interpretation of html and css rules, and
their implications, I will listen intently to what Mr. Korpela says.
However, when I deal with mere mortals such as myself, I will strive for
a little more flexibility.

On 2009-07-05, William Gill <nospam (AT) domain (DOT) invalid> wrote:

Rob W. wrote:
[...]
That's one of the things I appreciate in Jukka's posts;
he likes to take things literally and he's good with specifications.


It is what I appreciate in him also, but I recognize that outside of
mathematics it is difficult to find anything as rigid, exacting, and
uncompromising as those who can only see things from their own
(frequently narrow) perspective. I have seen many that fit this mold,
and unfortunately have seen most of them assume the worst in others. I
have as yet never seen any achieve the level of infallibility in
themselves, that they castigate others for lacking. That includes Jukka
“Yucca” Korpela.

In one previous life I was an engineer. Many of my contemporaries
believed in the absolutes of their work, "I works that way because
that's how I designed it to work." I however choose to spend more time
in the field examining the differences between the imperfect environment
in which the equipment actually operated, and the perfect environment of
the drawing table. My stuff always worked, because "That's how I
adapted the design to work."

So when I need an exacting interpretation of html and css rules, and
their implications, I will listen intently to what Mr. Korpela says.
However, when I deal with mere mortals such as myself, I will strive for
a little more flexibility.

But Korpela is always very careful only to recommend things that work
even in broken browsers or with CSS turned off, etc.

Ben C wrote:

But Korpela is always very careful only to recommend things that work
even in broken browsers or with CSS turned off, etc.

Yes, but (I noticed you began your statement with a "but") how often
does he do it without pointing out how clueless someone somewhere is
(the OP, a responder, someone)? I once had a discussion with him where
I wanted to use the same identifier on different elements (i.e.
paragraph, heading or whatever). He in his usual tactful way pointed
out my ignorance of the requirement that ID's be unique. I hadn't
mentioned "not on the same document" because ID's "...must be unique in
a document..." so it was implied. I could have said how clueless he was
to not realize one stylesheet can be shared by numerous pages, and that
a paragraph on one page could share the ID (and thus styling) with a
different element on another page, but I didn't assume the worst of him,
and recognized it was a mutual miscommunication.

I fear this is beginning to look like a criticism of Mr. Korpela, when
it was intended as a defense of accidentally confusing his nickname and
his proper name, and coming up with neither. Maybe defense is too
strong, mitigation may be a better choice. I'm sure Mr. Johnson has
been beating himself up mercilessly for the past several days.

On 2009-07-06, William Gill <nospam (AT) domain (DOT) invalid> wrote:

Ben C wrote:
But Korpela is always very careful only to recommend things that work
even in broken browsers or with CSS turned off, etc.

Yes, but (I noticed you began your statement with a "but") how often
does he do it without pointing out how clueless someone somewhere is
(the OP, a responder, someone)?

The "but" was because you seemed to be likening him to the perfectionist
engineer rather than to the practical pragmatic one.

I once had a discussion with him where I wanted to use the same
identifier on different elements (i.e. paragraph, heading or
whatever). He in his usual tactful way pointed out my ignorance of
the requirement that ID's be unique. I hadn't mentioned "not on the
same document" because ID's "...must be unique in a document..." so it
was implied. I could have said how clueless he was to not realize one
stylesheet can be shared by numerous pages, and that a paragraph on
one page could share the ID (and thus styling) with a different
element on another page, but I didn't assume the worst of him, and
recognized it was a mutual miscommunication.

Well, I couldn't possibly comment.

I enjoy a good quibble with Mr K in the same way that one enjoys a
really good game of chess with the Grim Reaper, but if there's one thing
he doesn't like, it's being psychoanalyzed.