Table border and CSS

Jukka K. Korpela wrote:

Biff wrote:

Jukka K. Korpela wrote:
Biff wrote:

I think Yukka must be working from an undisclosed location.

Try using my real name or my nickname, not a spelling you invented,
and maybe I'll stop calling you Biff.

Maybe you should look at your own sig line:

Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/

And where do you see the name you used?

Fine O Obtuse One, I missed the c's

As you are not paying attention and you are posting messages with no
on-topic content, and as you avoid the on-topic point I made, you get
close to ranking as a nuisance.

So, put me in your kill file. I've got better things to do than
fruitless arguments.

Jeff

ObCSS: Note that CSS specifications do not in any way define _how_ the
presentational HTML markup that might be "honored" is to be interpreted
in CSS terms.

On 2009-07-03, Jukka K. Korpela wrote:

Biff wrote:

I think Yukka must be working from an undisclosed location.

Try using my real name or my nickname, not a spelling you invented, and
maybe I'll stop calling you Biff.

Which is your real name? The one in the From: line (Yukka) or the
one in your sig (Yucca)?

--
Chris F.A. Johnson <http://cfaj.freeshell.org>
================================================== =================
Author:
Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)

Chris F.A. Johnson schreef:

On 2009-07-03, Jukka K. Korpela wrote:
Biff wrote:

I think Yukka must be working from an undisclosed location.
Try using my real name or my nickname, not a spelling you invented, and
maybe I'll stop calling you Biff.

Which is your real name? The one in the From: line (Yukka) or the
one in your sig (Yucca)?

You might want to buy a box of tissues
to clean your screen.

--
Rob

Rob W. wrote:

Chris F.A. Johnson schreef:
On 2009-07-03, Jukka K. Korpela wrote:
Biff wrote:

I think Yukka must be working from an undisclosed location.
Try using my real name or my nickname, not a spelling you invented,
and maybe I'll stop calling you Biff.

Which is your real name? The one in the From: line (Yukka) or the
one in your sig (Yucca)?



You might want to buy a box of tissues
to clean your screen.

Who knows the ins and outs of Finnish? Why can't Yucca just say

something plainly instead of making a needless game of it?

My own opinion is that Yucca was much more tolerable when Alan was
still around. I'm not even sure where he is going. Clearly the web is
headed towards standards based table free layouts styled in the
stylesheet, why is Yucca promulgating tables and archaic attribute in
the html styling? I can think of several recent examples of this.

Jeff

jeff wrote:

Who knows the ins and outs of Finnish?

I hope you will fix your forged From field as soon as you get a clue and
start discussing on-topic issues. Meanwhile, your explicit desire to get
ignored should be honored.

--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/

On 2009-07-03, Jukka K. Korpela <jkorpela (AT) cs (DOT) tut.fi> wrote:

Ben C wrote:

What can you do with the border attribute that you can't do with CSS?

What I said - generate borders in browser-dependent, undocumented manner.

Do you have an example? I would be interested to know.

On 2009-07-03, Jukka K. Korpela <jkorpela (AT) cs (DOT) tut.fi> wrote:

Biff wrote:

Jukka K. Korpela wrote:
Biff wrote:

I think Yukka must be working from an undisclosed location.

Try using my real name or my nickname, not a spelling you invented,
and maybe I'll stop calling you Biff.

Maybe you should look at your own sig line:

Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/

And where do you see the name you used?

As you are not paying attention and you are posting messages with no
on-topic content, and as you avoid the on-topic point I made, you get close
to ranking as a nuisance.

ObCSS: Note that CSS specifications do not in any way define _how_ the
presentational HTML markup that might be "honored" is to be interpreted in
CSS terms.

Firefox for one appears to convert HTML presentational attributes into
CSS (including possibly special custom CSS-- new properties and/or
values that start with -moz- for example-- although I can't remember if
or where I saw that, and I don't think it was for border).

This is just a reasonably obvious implementation decision. You've just
written a bit of software that does CSS layout, so you might as well use
it to do HTML presentational attributes too. You're right that the CSS
specs don't spell out how you would do this.

It's undefined quite how presentational attributes mix with any real CSS
that might be in effect, and this gets particularly confusing for
attributes that are inherited as described in HTML-- you might inherit a
CSS border from somewhere and inherit, in the HTML sense, a different
border from somewhere else. It may be logically impossible to conform to
both the HTML standard and the CSS specs at the same time.

I've also never seen any browser implement presentational attributes
exactly according to the HTML standard, but I get the impression the
standard post-dates the "legacy" behaviour that is the common ancestor
that browser implementors are aiming to provide compatibility with and
the standards writers to document.

Gazing into my crystal ball I observed Ben C <spamspam (AT) spam (DOT) eggs>
writing in news:slrnh4std0.3b7.spamspam (AT) bowser (DOT) marioworld:

On 2009-07-03, Jukka K. Korpela <jkorpela (AT) cs (DOT) tut.fi> wrote:
Ben C wrote:

What can you do with the border attribute that you can't do with
CSS?

What I said - generate borders in browser-dependent, undocumented
manner.

Do you have an example? I would be interested to know.

Here you go:
http://www.cavalcade-of-coding.info/usenet/tablecssborder.html

Different browsers do different things. I didn't fire up Firefox or
Chrome or Safari or K-Meleon, but you can see the difference even
between Opera and IE.

--
Adrienne Boswell at Home
Arbpen Web Site Design Services
http://www.cavalcade-of-coding.info
Please respond to the group so others can share

In article <MZq3m.19981$vi5.19831 (AT) uutiset (DOT) elisa.fi>,
"Jukka K. Korpela" <jkorpela (AT) cs (DOT) tut.fi> wrote:

dorayme wrote:

table border="1"
- -
.planets {border: 1px solid #000}

That sets a border around the whole table only, which is different from the
effect of the HTML attribute.

Yes, I agree. In addition, the HTML set border is often rather nicer in
many browsers than a simple border set in CSS. One has to work a bit to
get the pleasant rough equivalent.

Anyone doing a Phd on borders this weekend might want to build and
expand around:

<http://dorayme.netweaver.com.au/tableBorders.html>

(Notice, btw, how Opera seems not to understand the ordered list as it
should. The OL is not strictly relevant here.)

If you want the cells themselves to have borders, one way is no border
to table itself but:

table {border-collapse: collapse}
td {border: 1px solid #000;}

This generates yet another type of bordering. Quite possibly better than the
HTML way, but nominally the OP asked for a replacement of <table
border="1">. There is no replacement, as the effect of the HTML construct
depends on the browser in a manner that cannot (and probably need not) be
reproduced in CSS.

Yes, I agree with this too. But I have never been all that happy with
nominalism. I thought the OP, under the nominal surface, would be happy
with the substitutes mentioned.

There is a rather good 'semantic argument' to use an HTML set border, it
has always struck me that borders on tables are rather important to
understand the meaning of the data. The borders stay (if not set to zero
in the HTML) if CSS is off.

A table is a mainly visual presentational device (yes, for presenting
tabular data if you like, this is not here in dispute) at its core and
we should be careful before dispensing with borders. It has always
seemed to me that having no borders on tables is a positive
presentational decision. This last reminds me of:

Jean-Paul Sartre is sitting at a French cafe, revising his draft of
Being and Nothingness. He says to the waitress, "I'd like a cup of
coffee, please, with no cream." The waitress replies, "I'm sorry,
monsieur, but we're out of cream. How about with no milk?"

--
dorayme

On 2009-07-04, Adrienne Boswell <arbpen (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote:

Gazing into my crystal ball I observed Ben C <spamspam (AT) spam (DOT) eggs
writing in news:slrnh4std0.3b7.spamspam (AT) bowser (DOT) marioworld:

On 2009-07-03, Jukka K. Korpela <jkorpela (AT) cs (DOT) tut.fi> wrote:
Ben C wrote:

What can you do with the border attribute that you can't do with
CSS?

What I said - generate borders in browser-dependent, undocumented
manner.

Do you have an example? I would be interested to know.


Here you go:
http://www.cavalcade-of-coding.info/usenet/tablecssborder.html

Different browsers do different things. I didn't fire up Firefox or
Chrome or Safari or K-Meleon, but you can see the difference even
between Opera and IE.

It's the same in Firefox-- and just what one would expect. border=1
gives you a border on the table and the cells. So if you only set a
border on the table in CSS, you only get a border on the table.

I was wondering if there was some behaviour of the border attribute you
just couldn't do with CSS (expecting something involving page breaks and
captions or something-- because I know that is an area I don't know much
about).