stylesheet for screenplays - @page example ?

David J Patrick wrote in
<pan.2004.06.19.16.36.28.779818 (AT) sympatico (DOT) ca>

I'm trying to rewrite the CSS used in
http://s92415866.onlinehome.us/files...playCSSv2.html.
using the w3.org paged media standards as described at
http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/page.html

The ScreenplayCSS is flawed, for several reasons;
-overuse of <div id= tags
-doesn't scale screen resolutions (convert from px to in, pt ?)
-no media="print" (how much coule be shared between "screen" &
"print")
-no automatic page breaks (with automatic numbering ?)

The "hollywood" screenplay format is well defined
(http://www.online-communicator.com/faq20_5.html)
Is it possible to drive a consistant printout, from html, with CSS ?
Does anyone have suggestions for improvement of the above
ScreenplayCSS ? How about an example of a page that uses the @page
definition ? thanks !

Apologies if this is on the wrong track but Final Draft - which is pretty
much accepted in the industry - works to the "Hollywood" format and has a
"Save as html option" which I've never used until your post. So, I just
tried it - confidently expecting Word-style bloat. Because of the
constraints of the screenplay format, FD is able to simply output the entire
thing in <pre>. Perhaps that might point in a useful direction.

BTW, FD is available as a demo at http://www.finaldraft.com/

--
PeterMcC
If you feel that any of the above is incorrect,
inappropriate or offensive in any way,
please ignore it and accept my apologies.

David J Patrick <davidjpatrick (AT) sympatico (DOT) ca> writes:

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 12:32:27 +0100, Alan J. Flavell wrote:
However, in this special case it seems the author is trying to
visually reproduce the appearance of a paper document. That's a
special (and in some sense perverse - no offence intended) way of
using HTML, with or without CSS.

I'm not sure what to suggest - *any* choice is going to be a
compromise.

Yeah, as I see it now (and it's a moving target) I'd like to create a CSS
with three profiles;

1. (media="screen") a smooth flowing, readable version, with light
formatting and the users choice of font/ size. This (least formal) could
also feature a pure CSS menu to navigate the script, etc. If possible,
page breaks will be indicated, but not forced, based on a rigid layout.

Okay.

2. (media="screen-rigid") this layout gives a visual page field (like
ScreenplayCSSv2) and adheres strictly print formatting
conventions even so far as to put shadows where the tree-hole-punch goes.

"screen-rigid" isn't a recognised media type, though. So browser
support will be non-existent, I think.

3. (media="print") same as 2. .. only more so !

Okay.

If this can only be done consistently using one browser (Mozilla) SO BE IT !
It's freely available for you platform!
I realize that a lot of this flies in the face of conventional web wisdom,
perhaps that's why it's never been done. That doesn't mean it CAN'T be
done !

Possibly what I'd suggest is:
Stylesheet 1: Media="screen"
Alternate Stylesheet 2: Media="screen"
Stylesheet 3: Media="print"

The alternate stylesheet implementation fails on page changes in every
browser I've seen that does it at all. But my impression of this is
that you intend it to be a single long file anyway, where that isn't a
problem.

Alternatively (and with more support in browsers) you could switch
between 1 and 2 using server-side scripting, which would be a better
solution, if you have server-side scripting available.

--
Chris

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 12:32:27 +0100, Alan J. Flavell wrote:

However, in this special case it seems the author is trying to
visually reproduce the appearance of a paper document. That's a
special (and in some sense perverse - no offence intended) way of
using HTML, with or without CSS.

None taken ! Your absolutely right !

I'm not sure what to suggest - *any*
choice is going to be a compromise.

Yeah, as I see it now (and it's a moving target) I'd like to create a CSS
with three profiles;

1. (media="screen") a smooth flowing, readable version, with light
formatting and the users choice of font/ size. This (least formal) could
also feature a pure CSS menu to navigate the script, etc. If possible,
page breaks will be indicated, but not forced, based on a rigid layout.

2. (media="screen-rigid") this layout gives a visual page field (like
ScreenplayCSSv2) and adheres strictly print formatting
conventions even so far as to put shadows where the tree-hole-punch goes.

3. (media="print") same as 2. .. only more so !

If this can only be done consistently using one browser (Mozilla) SO BE IT !
It's freely available for you platform!
I realize that a lot of this flies in the face of conventional web wisdom,
perhaps that's why it's never been done. That doesn't mean it CAN'T be
done !

I would also like to develop a reliable method of converting to PDF, but
that it outside of the CSS mission.

Thanks for your interest and insight,
djp

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 20:34:51 +0930, Tim wrote:

Tim wrote:

You can't mimic the page count on screen, as you don't have pages on the
screen. You have something analagous to a continuous roll of paper.

Yet it should be possible to represent pages, one after another (as in
http://s92415866.onlinehome.us/files...playCSSv2.html) and if layout
and size were !important and imposed, break-before and break-after rules
could do a reasonable job, couldn't they ?

Any clues how to use @page, break rules and numbering ?

You'll have to wait for browsers to be improved. Few have any decent
sort of support for those things. It's generally only the experimental
ones (e.g. Mozilla) that have any support for page media effects.

Well then, for this application (and I can't believe I'm saying this)
perhaps a "best viewed with Mozilla" flag is in order.

You probably want to look into a program designed for text manipulation
(a real word processor, not a desk top publisher). Probably something
like Tex or Latex

LyX is pretty good and has both existing screenplay templates and crisp
output. The challenge, in this case though, is to start with a
super lightweight txt markup, and click-click get a formally formatted
representation of that screenplay.

In the past, I've written programs for custom handling of text. It was
easier, for me then, than trying to find something ready made, and I had
my source material in a manageable format too (that's important).

So you know where I'm coming from !

There's no ability to "force" anything in WWW authoring...

grrrrrr ... ;-)

thanks, Tim,
djp

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 16:57:49 +0100, Chris Morris wrote:

Possibly what I'd suggest is:
Stylesheet 1: Media="screen"
Alternate Stylesheet 2: Media="screen"
Stylesheet 3: Media="print"

yeah, /that's/ what I meant !
What I don't know (yet) is the mechanism to call that Alternate Sheet.

The alternate stylesheet implementation fails on page changes in every
browser I've seen that does it at all. But my impression of this is
that you intend it to be a single long file anyway, where that isn't a
problem.

Your impression is correct. Perhaps Stylesheet2 is invoked from a CSSmenu
in Stylesheet1.

Alternatively (and with more support in browsers) you could switch
between 1 and 2 using server-side scripting, which would be a better
solution, if you have server-side scripting available.

I would avoid that, as there will be no host established, only the
wholesome goodness of CSS.
djp

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 16:31:52 +0100, PeterMcC wrote:

Apologies if this is on the wrong track but Final Draft - which is pretty
much accepted in the industry - works to the "Hollywood" format and has a
"Save as html option" which I've never used until your post.

No appology required and yes, you are on the wrong track ! ;-)
I've used FD, and it's the "standard for a good reason, but what I'm
trying to do is to bring it on home at a lower level. The spark that got
me going on this was a desire for the tools to create a screenplay
starting with a simple txt editor, (in my case SiEd, on the palm pilot)
and to allow portable acceptable formatting using tools that anyone can
use, at no cost.
Can FD import is's own html ? Could you email me a sample output ?
thanks !

David J Patrick <davidjpatrick (AT) sympatico (DOT) ca> wrote:

Yeah, as I see it now (and it's a moving target) I'd like to create a CSS
with three profiles;

1. (media="screen") a smooth flowing, readable version, with light
formatting and the users choice of font/ size. This (least formal) could
also feature a pure CSS menu to navigate the script, etc. If possible,
page breaks will be indicated, but not forced, based on a rigid layout.

2. (media="screen-rigid") this layout gives a visual page field (like
ScreenplayCSSv2) and adheres strictly print formatting
conventions even so far as to put shadows where the tree-hole-punch goes.

3. (media="print") same as 2. .. only more so !

It seems to me that the second case might just be an on-screen preview of
the third (media="print") case. If so, then current browsers can give you a
print preview, using the media="print" style sheet.
--
Darin McGrew, mcgrew (AT) stanfordalumni (DOT) org, http://www.rahul.net/mcgrew/
Web Design Group, darin (AT) htmlhelp (DOT) com, http://www.HTMLHelp.com/

"Shin: a device for finding furniture in the dark." - Steven Wright

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 17:57:59 +0000, Darin McGrew wrote:

It seems to me that the second case might just be an on-screen preview of
the third (media="print") case. If so, then current browsers can give you a
print preview, using the media="print" style sheet.

Almost the same thing, but the "browsing" in a print preview is invariably
clunkier. The two should ve very similar, though.

In article <pan.2004.06.21.17.04.39.141075 (AT) sympatico (DOT) ca>,
David J Patrick <davidjpatrick (AT) sympatico (DOT) ca> wrote:

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 16:57:49 +0100, Chris Morris wrote:

Possibly what I'd suggest is:
Stylesheet 1: Media="screen"
Alternate Stylesheet 2: Media="screen"
Stylesheet 3: Media="print"

yeah, /that's/ what I meant !
What I don't know (yet) is the mechanism to call that Alternate Sheet.

Doesn't the Css Zen Garden <http://www.csszengarden.com> do that to
extreme? They may be using javascript to achieve that though (i
can't post and use WWW at the same time, or i'd *clickety* over
there and check for you).

--
-john

February 28 1997: Last day libraries could order catalogue cards
from the Library of Congress.

*BenOne©* <nosp@m.thanks.mate>:

Neal wrote:

If only 1em = 1 character!

I learned that the hard way. It's a pity there isn't a standard measurement
for a character.

Well, Mozilla uses the proprietary 'ch', but for what it's worth, 'ex' comes
much closer to the average character width than 'em', even if it's
implemented in its simplest form ("0.5em").

--
"Anyone who slaps a 'this page is best viewed with Browser X' label on a
Web page appears to be yearning for the bad old days, before the Web, when
you had very little chance of reading a document written on another computer,
another word processor, or another network." Tim Berners-Lee, 1996