A serious drawback of CSS

Op Mon, 23 Jan 2006 17:10:34 +0100 schreef "Dario de Judicibus"
<nospam (AT) nowhere (DOT) com>:

I am experimenting with CSS since 2001. As I moved from frame based sites to
CSS sites, I realized that the major drawback of CSS is that you cannot
anymore have your header, manu, footer and content panes in different files,
but you have to *repeat* them in *each* page you do. If I have to change any
common section, I have to apply the change in many different files at the
same time. Maintenance is now a real mess.

[snip]
What can I do? Please, do NOT tell me «use PHP, ASP or ColdFusion». I cannot
always do that.

I encountered te same problem when switching.
However the benefits outweight these problems IMHO.

Solutions?

- Use a html-preprocessor to include menu's etc. before publishing the
site.
- Use a text editor, or text-tool that can replace text in multiple
files.

Personally I use the last one.

Bart
--
Bart Broersma
broersma.juda_ANTISPAM_ (AT) tiscali (DOT) nl
(ff _ANTISPAM_ wegpoetsen uit dit adres natuurlijk)

On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 10:28:52 +0000, in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.stylesheets , "Alan J. Flavell"
<flavell (AT) ph (DOT) gla.ac.uk> in
<Pine.LNX.4.62.0601241013240.18391 (AT) ppepc62 (DOT) ph.gla.ac.uk> wrote:

On Tue, 24 Jan 2006, Jasen Betts wrote:

On 2006-01-23, Dario de Judicibus <nospam (AT) nowhere (DOT) com> wrote:

What can I do? Please, do NOT tell me «use PHP, ASP or
ColdFusion». I cannot always do that.

build the files in pieces and use a script to combine them, put the
combined files on the server.

Consider using "make". Write a Makefile which defines your automated
processes to be applied after a source code update, via your
processing chain, HTML validation etc., and finally upload to server.

Of course, "make" is usually thought of as a tool for software
development, but don't let that distract you.

There's a bit of a learning curve, but it can result in a flexible and
convenient final process. You could define make "targets" like "make
check", "make publish" etc. Via the "dependencies", your Makefile
will show which published pages "depend" on components which have been
updated (as shown by their file's timestamp), and will rebuild only
those pages which are affected by the changes, if it's done right.

You can use that to do things like remove comments prior to "publish".
Actually a pretty good idea.


--
Matt Silberstein

Do something today about the Darfur Genocide

http://www.beawitness.org
http://www.darfurgenocide.org
http://www.savedarfur.org

"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"

Spartanicus wrote:

You can use a preprocessor, template based authoring systems usually
allow inclusion of code fragments, swapping out code blocks is easy
with a good quality S&R function, and lastly the aforementioned
locally installed scripting solution.

For example?

DdJ

Matt Silberstein wrote:

It occurs to me that that concept is the biggest problem with WYSIWYG
editors. Not that they produce bad code but that they stop you from
seeing that is code to then be processed. When you see you are writing
code to the process for display it is no big deal to have a processing
step in the middle make the display file.

I use Homesite to develop code. I code my pages manually. If I have to use
PHP, no problem, but if I have to be totally client-dependent, is a mess. I
really do not understand why I cannot use the SRC atttribute to load HTML
fragments as follows:

<p src="/common/copyright.xmlf" />

where I use .htmlf for an XHTML fragment (no Doctype, but conformant to XML,
that is, no element split).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dr. Dario de Judicibus - Italy (EU)
Site: http://www.dejudicibus.it/
Blog: http://lindipendente.splinder.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Jasen Betts wrote:

What can I do? Please, do NOT tell me «use PHP, ASP or ColdFusion».
I cannot always do that.

build the files in pieces and use a script to combine them, put the
combined files on the server.

I get crazy. I need to se the effects of my changes during development. In
homesite is easy: edit code, go to browse tab, see result, go back to edit.
If I had to run scripts each time to see the page, I get crazy.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dr. Dario de Judicibus - Italy (EU)
Site: http://www.dejudicibus.it/
Blog: http://lindipendente.splinder.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Alan J. Flavell wrote:

Consider using "make". Write a Makefile which defines your automated
processes to be applied after a source code update, via your
processing chain, HTML validation etc., and finally upload to server.

Well, I do not like nor use code generators, but I *use* visual tools.
Visual tools are used for C++ programming too. Using command based stuff is
absurd for web development. I need to continuosly switch between edit mode
and view mode.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dr. Dario de Judicibus - Italy (EU)
Site: http://www.dejudicibus.it/
Blog: http://lindipendente.splinder.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Bart wrote:

- Use a html-preprocessor to include menu's etc. before publishing the
site.
- Use a text editor, or text-tool that can replace text in multiple
files.

OK. there are ways, but it looks to me that they are only tricks to move
around the problem. But the problem is still there. In my opinion, the only
practical solution would be to allow SRC attribute for html code too. We use
it already for images. Why not tags?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dr. Dario de Judicibus - Italy (EU)
Site: http://www.dejudicibus.it/
Blog: http://lindipendente.splinder.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

P.S. Note that this is a "CODE" problem, but it was "caused" by CSS, since
it oriented programmin from frames to DIVs.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dr. Dario de Judicibus - Italy (EU)
Site: http://www.dejudicibus.it/
Blog: http://lindipendente.splinder.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 14:45:53 +0100, in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.stylesheets , "Dario de Judicibus"
<nospam (AT) nowhere (DOT) com> in <dr5b3t$2jce$1 (AT) newsreader1 (DOT) mclink.it> wrote:

Matt Silberstein wrote:
It occurs to me that that concept is the biggest problem with WYSIWYG
editors. Not that they produce bad code but that they stop you from
seeing that is code to then be processed. When you see you are writing
code to the process for display it is no big deal to have a processing
step in the middle make the display file.

I use Homesite to develop code. I code my pages manually. If I have to use
PHP, no problem, but if I have to be totally client-dependent, is a mess. I
really do not understand why I cannot use the SRC atttribute to load HTML
fragments as follows:

p src="/common/copyright.xmlf" /

where I use .htmlf for an XHTML fragment (no Doctype, but conformant to XML,
that is, no element split).

If it is static, then just do the job once at the source. Whether or
not it would be nice for the browsers to do that, they don't. Of
course, if you really want that, then do it with JavaScript.

--
Matt Silberstein

Do something today about the Darfur Genocide

http://www.beawitness.org
http://www.darfurgenocide.org
http://www.savedarfur.org

"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"

On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 14:49:39 +0100, in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.stylesheets , "Dario de Judicibus"
<nospam (AT) nowhere (DOT) com> in <dr5bb5$2jg3$1 (AT) newsreader1 (DOT) mclink.it> wrote:

Alan J. Flavell wrote:

Consider using "make". Write a Makefile which defines your automated
processes to be applied after a source code update, via your
processing chain, HTML validation etc., and finally upload to server.

Well, I do not like nor use code generators, but I *use* visual tools.
Visual tools are used for C++ programming too. Using command based stuff is
absurd for web development. I need to continuosly switch between edit mode
and view mode.

I suspect that when you code your C++ you then compile it. Running
make is the same as a compile. I bet you could get HTML-KIT to do this
for you.



--
Matt Silberstein

Do something today about the Darfur Genocide

http://www.beawitness.org
http://www.darfurgenocide.org
http://www.savedarfur.org

"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"