Re: Table fun: would appreciate a look

Rev. Bob 'Bob' Crispen wrote:

http://www.crispen.org/src/our_computer.html> The thing I'm
interested in is at the very bottom of the page. You ought to see
something like:

+-------+ +-------+ +-------+
| | text | | | |
| image | | image | | image |
| | text | | | |
+-------+ +-------+ +-------+

I'd appreciate a look if you've got a Mac, Linux, a Gecko-based
browser, MSIE 6, etc.

Using Moz 1.3/Win 2k. Appears to be what you have drawn.

http://www.crispen.org/src/our_computer2.html> shows the problem.
Amaya doesn't render the <tr>'s inside the inner table.

This doesn't look like tablular data to me. I wouldn't use any tables
at all for the footer, let alone *nested* tables.

Workarounds would be greatly appreciated, particularly if they don't
make Netscape 4 go toes-up. Fixes will put me in your debt for a
long, long time.

quickly, without worrying about the details:
http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~btrembla/test/test2/crispen.html

Btw, I actually got the middle part of that deal to work at
http://www.crispen.org/us/whatsnew.html>, thanks to the poster on
this NG whose name I see I've now lost among my notes -- it was a set
of example column layouts, all without tables, which I plundered and
adapted.

Do the same for the footer. Dump the tables, and keep it simple.

--
Brian
follow the directions in my address to email me

The voices predicted that Brian
<brian (AT) wfcr (DOT) org.invalid-remove-this-part> would say on 06 Jul 2003:

This doesn't look like tablular data to me. I wouldn't use any
tables at all for the footer, let alone *nested* tables.

[snip]

quickly, without worrying about the details:
http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~btrembla/test/test2/crispen.html

Well, the first web browser I tried it in, Opera 6, gave me:

+-------+ +-------+

| +-------+ | |
image | text | | | image |
| te | image | | |
+-------+ xt | | +-------+

+-------+

I wouldn't mind so much, except Opera 6 is currenly my least despised
web browser.

In Netscape 4 the xhtml logo and text are all the way to the left and
the letter icon and Bobby logo are all the way to the right:

xhtml text letter Bobby

They're all lined up properly, and not overlapping, so it's at least
as good as my tables version:

xhtml text letter Bobby

In MSIE 5.5 the xhtml logo, text, and letter are all the way to the
left, and the Bobby logo is all the way to the right. All lined up
nicely, and no overlapping or missing bits:

xhtml text letter Bobby

In Amaya, the xhtml logo and the Bobby logo are all the way over to
the left, followed by a line break, the letter icon all the way over
on the left, followed by the text, which then wraps below the letter:

xhtml Bobby
letter te
xt text

Presumably in a Gecko-based browser it goes:

xhtml text letter Bobby

the way I intended.

Now you'll look high and low for somebody who's happier than I to get
rid of tables when the stuff in them isn't tabular, but I think we're
moving in the wrong direction. I'm out to *decrease* variability of
rendering. I mean, otherwise, why bother?

Anyhow, I appreciate the effort, and I'll be using it as a starting
point for my next set of trials (I've been at it a couple of days, but
I'm hampered by quite a bit of ignorance).

Any other inspirations, anybody?
--
Rev. Bob "Bob" Crispen
bob at crispen dot org

What we're looking for: destinations.
What we end up getting: journeys.

Rev. Bob 'Bob' Crispen wrote:

http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~btrembla/test/test2/crispen.html

Well, the first web browser I tried it in, Opera 6, gave me:
[snip]
I wouldn't mind so much, except Opera 6 is currenly my least
despised web browser.

http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~btrembla/test/test2/crispen/opera7.gif
(65kb)

In Netscape 4 the xhtml logo and text are all the way to the left and
the letter icon and Bobby logo are all the way to the right:

NN4 is a broken browser, and the number of users is fairly small and
shrinking. Thus, I don't get too concerned with NN4 in terms of
layout. I make sure the content is accessible. On the last major
site I developed, I only used simple styles for NN4. I hid everything
else, and didn't bother with workarounds. On my next project, this
summer, I will offer no stylesheet instructions whatsoever for NN4.
It will get only the HTML. The presentation will be whatever its
default presentation is.

In MSIE 5.5 the xhtml logo, text, and letter are all the way to the
left, and the Bobby logo is all the way to the right. All lined up
nicely, and no overlapping or missing bits:

MSIE 5.x screws up centering block elements with margin. There is a
workaround, if this is important to you. It's too late for me to go
into it now, but if you want, I'll give you the ugly details tomorrow.

Presumably in a Gecko-based browser it goes:

http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~btrembla/test/test2/crispen/moz13.gif
(70kb)

Now you'll look high and low for somebody who's happier than I to get
rid of tables when the stuff in them isn't tabular, but I think we're
moving in the wrong direction.

I respectfully disagree. Using tables for layout is an accessibility
problem. The css layout I did is an improvement over your table-based
layout. IMHO, of course. And YMMV.

I'm out to *decrease* variability of rendering. I mean,
otherwise, why bother?

To make content accessible. That's why bother. Who says it needs to
look identical in each browser? If you're out for pixel-perfect
copies, you're in for a world of frustration. Let go a little. As
long as it looks

--
Brian
follow the directions in my address to email me

Rev. Bob 'Bob' Crispen wrote:

http://www.crispen.org/src/index.html

Very nice page, imo. The layout reinforces the structure. Can't ask
for more. Quibbles:

1. the breadcrumbs at the top are left-aligned. Those on the bottom
are right-aligned. Why not make the one on the bottom left as well,
for consistency's sake?

2. the breadcrumb link is to the root directory. Good. But the
family link next to the email is to www.crispen.org/index.html
lose the index.html

<url: http://webtips.dan.info/subdir.html >

Those nit-picks aside, this is a nice page.

http://www.crispen.org/src/our_computer.html

ditto re: breadcrumb location
also, I find the grey on blue difficult to read

--
Brian
follow the directions in my address to email me

The voices predicted that Brian
<brian (AT) wfcr (DOT) org.invalid-remove-this-part> would say on 07 Jul 2003:

1. the breadcrumbs at the top are left-aligned. Those on the
bottom are right-aligned. Why not make the one on the bottom left
as well, for consistency's sake?

Of all your advice, this is the only one I'm still meditating on. The
rest (snipped) I did. I like a layout style that's symmetrical about
a diagonal axis. Anyhow, still thinking. Many thanks for the help.
--
Rev. Bob "Bob" Crispen
bob at crispen dot org

What we're looking for: destinations.
What we end up getting: journeys.