Before You Begin Coding..You Should...?

Hello. It's me again with another question that should generate a lot of
responses.

As mentioned before, I'm working on my first site (hopefully I'll be done
soon and can move on to other stuff...caus I'm tired of looking at the same
graphics). :-)

But, I've been running into all of these different HTML/CSS code debacles,
after which I've been advised to go back and "add 'this' default coding to
your stylesheet", or "IE sees your code like this...Mozilla/Firefox sees it
as this, so you have to do 'this' "....

Only to come to the conclusion that there are some general things that I need
to do or code that I need to always include that will make my life a lot
easier when I been using positioning code and other CSS elements to create my
webpage.

From your perspective, what would be these general inclusions...? What do I
"always" need to do so I won't have problems coding and my viewers won't have
any problems viewing my page? (No graphic design answers needed).

--
Message posted via WebmasterKB.com
http://www.webmasterkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/css/200712/1

LayneMitch via WebmasterKB.com wrote:

Hello. It's me again with another question that should generate a lot of
responses.

As mentioned before, I'm working on my first site (hopefully I'll be done
soon and can move on to other stuff...caus I'm tired of looking at the same
graphics). :-)

But, I've been running into all of these different HTML/CSS code debacles,
after which I've been advised to go back and "add 'this' default coding to
your stylesheet", or "IE sees your code like this...Mozilla/Firefox sees it
as this, so you have to do 'this' "....

Only to come to the conclusion that there are some general things that I need
to do or code that I need to always include that will make my life a lot
easier when I been using positioning code and other CSS elements to create my
webpage.

From your perspective, what would be these general inclusions...? What do I
"always" need to do so I won't have problems coding and my viewers won't have
any problems viewing my page? (No graphic design answers needed).

Develop *not* in IE but in a modern web browser.

Make your page legible *before* you add any styling.

Validate HTML and CSS *before* your start hacking away at your design.

Tweak if you must to get MSIE on board. Or better yet, see if you can
approach the design in a way that it is flexible enough where it does
not matter if it is displays differently among browsers. Remember your
visitors don't come to your site with two different browsers fired up
measuring the screen to notice that "the heading text 3 pixels farther
to the left" in one over the other!

--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com

On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 12:11:55 -0800, in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.stylesheets Michael Vilain
<vilain (AT) NOspamcop (DOT) net>
<vilain-E18E33.12115521122007 (AT) comcast (DOT) dca.giganews.com> wrote:

| In article <3cbcc$476bf842$40cba7ad$7872 (AT) NAXS (DOT) COM>,
| "Jonathan N. Little" <lws4art (AT) centralva (DOT) net> wrote:
|
| > LayneMitch via WebmasterKB.com wrote:
| > > Hello. It's me again with another question that should generate a lot of
| > > responses.
|
| > > As mentioned before, I'm working on my first site (hopefully I'll be done
| > > soon and can move on to other stuff...caus I'm tired of looking at the same
| > > graphics). :-)
|
| > > But, I've been running into all of these different HTML/CSS code debacles,
| > > after which I've been advised to go back and "add 'this' default coding to
| > > your stylesheet", or "IE sees your code like this...Mozilla/Firefox sees it
| > > as this, so you have to do 'this' "....
|
| > > Only to come to the conclusion that there are some general things that I
| > > need
| > > to do or code that I need to always include that will make my life a lot
| > > easier when I been using positioning code and other CSS elements to create
| > > my
| > > webpage.
|
| > > From your perspective, what would be these general inclusions...? What do I
| > > "always" need to do so I won't have problems coding and my viewers won't
| > > "have
| > > any problems viewing my page? (No graphic design answers needed).
|
|
| > Develop *not* in IE but in a modern web browser.
|
| > Make your page legible *before* you add any styling.
|
| > Validate HTML and CSS *before* your start hacking away at your design.
|
| > Tweak if you must to get MSIE on board. Or better yet, see if you can
| > approach the design in a way that it is flexible enough where it does
| > not matter if it is displays differently among browsers. Remember your
| > visitors don't come to your site with two different browsers fired up
| > measuring the screen to notice that "the heading text 3 pixels farther
| > to the left" in one over the other!
|
| When I was a programmer, one of the first things mentioned in both a
| project management class was "design first, then code. Fixing a bad
| design is expensive.". In a system performance class, it was "Tuning
| the performance of a bad design will get you lots of performance
| improvement. Tuning the performance of a reasonably running system may
| get you 10% improvement."
|
| This all comes down to the Carpenter's rule: measure twice, cut once.
|
| Unfortunately, in this day of rapid prototyping, a design spec is
| unheard of. As a programmer (and web programmer), it's my job to make
| sure the people using the program or site can understand and use it.
| Sometimes having some non-techie type walk through using it and taking
| notes can prove a big help.
|
| Also, if you put to much on a screen or page, it confuses people and
| they stop reading, skimming instead. Some sites don't care and just
| pack their site full of too much information (e.g. godaddy.com).
|
| Or they design with the wrong audience in mind. My business site is
| targeted towards the Silicon Valley techies I usually see as clients.
| It's loaded with information on what I do, it's features and benefits,
| and articles about it. It's not just an on-line flyer for my
| services--it's an on-line brochure filled with information, even a
| search feature for other practitioners in my area.
|
| Regarding IE:
|
| http://www.vilain.com/web-design.html

Love it!!!! LOL
Could I have a copy of the image please (properly attributed of
course). I think my students would get a real kick out of it :-)
-- -------------------------------------------------------------
jnorthau (AT) yourpantsyahoo (DOT) com.au : Remove your pants to reply
-- -------------------------------------------------------------

In article <4nmom3hshfipoeuqoedb5pdn3egvb6521r (AT) 4ax (DOT) com>,
Jeff North <jnorthau (AT) yahoo (DOT) com.au> wrote:

On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 12:11:55 -0800, in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.stylesheets Michael Vilain
vilain (AT) NOspamcop (DOT) net
vilain-E18E33.12115521122007 (AT) co...a.giganews.com> wrote:

| Regarding IE:
|
| http://www.vilain.com/web-design.html

Love it!!!! LOL
Could I have a copy of the image please (properly attributed of
course). I think my students would get a real kick out of it :-)
-- -------------------------------------------------------------
jnorthau (AT) yourpantsyahoo (DOT) com.au : Remove your pants to reply
-- -------------------------------------------------------------

Surely you did not need to quote all the text before the mention
of this link to express your love. It is important to cut down
the prattle on these ngs. As for getting the image (permission is
different issue), you just right click and save it to disk. If
you want some huge version of it to make a poster for your kids
it should not take a mo to knock one up for print quality. Being
Xmas and all, and if you or MV can't or won't do it, tell me. <g>

--
dorayme

"John" <user (AT) example (DOT) net> wrote

LayneMitch via WebmasterKB.com wrote:

The last thing you want to do is come back to a site months later to make
changes and suddenly realise you have no idea how the layout works.

You don't document/comment your code?

--
Richard.

In article <oc7bj.26436$CN4.6487 (AT) news-server (DOT) bigpond.net.au>,
"rf" <rf (AT) invalid (DOT) com> wrote:

"John" <user (AT) example (DOT) net> wrote in message
news:5t4bdaF1c7lovU1 (AT) mid (DOT) individual.net...
LayneMitch via WebmasterKB.com wrote:

The last thing you want to do is come back to a site months later to make
changes and suddenly realise you have no idea how the layout works.

You don't document/comment your code?

He does not need to, see, he keeps it simple according to his
"golden rule". <g>

--
dorayme

In article
<vilain-23EA11.11340922122007 (AT) comcast (DOT) dca.giganews.com>,
Michael Vilain <vilain (AT) NOspamcop (DOT) net> wrote:

In article
doraymeRidThis-76F046.11575522122007...ptusnet.com.au>,
dorayme <doraymeRidThis (AT) optusnet (DOT) com.au> wrote:

In article <4nmom3hshfipoeuqoedb5pdn3egvb6521r (AT) 4ax (DOT) com>,
Jeff North <jnorthau (AT) yahoo (DOT) com.au> wrote:

On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 12:11:55 -0800, in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.stylesheets Michael Vilain
vilain (AT) NOspamcop (DOT) net
vilain-E18E33.12115521122007 (AT) co...a.giganews.com> wrote:

| Regarding IE:
|
| http://www.vilain.com/web-design.html

Love it!!!! LOL
Could I have a copy of the image please (properly attributed of
course). I think my students would get a real kick out of it :-)

... As for getting the image (permission is
different issue), you just right click and save it to disk. If
you want some huge version of it to make a poster for your kids
it should not take a mo to knock one up for print quality. Being
Xmas and all, and if you or MV can't or won't do it, tell me. <g

Regarding the web-design image. It's not mine. I wandered across it on
a web-design news group.

Actually, I have seen it before. I had been meaning to change it
around a bit, partly to make it more earthy Australian but I need
more motivation <g>

--
dorayme

In article <5t778vF1cb7plU1 (AT) mid (DOT) individual.net>,
John <user (AT) example (DOT) net> wrote:

dorayme wrote:
In article <oc7bj.26436$CN4.6487 (AT) news-server (DOT) bigpond.net.au>,
"rf" <rf (AT) invalid (DOT) com> wrote:

"John" <user (AT) example (DOT) net> wrote in message
news:5t4bdaF1c7lovU1 (AT) mid (DOT) individual.net...
LayneMitch via WebmasterKB.com wrote:
The last thing you want to do is come back to a site months later to make
changes and suddenly realise you have no idea how the layout works.
You don't document/comment your code?

He does not need to, see, he keeps it simple according to his
"golden rule". <g

That's right. So far, I have always managed to get by with float-based
layouts, and if I have a float-based layout with two or three columns,
why would I need to add comments?


If you have to add comments to explain what the hell is going on in a
CSS layout, it seems to me that the layout is already over-complicated
and will probably cause maintenance headaches somewhere down the line.

In fairness to rf (this xmas spirit is getting at me big time and
I don't like it at all), your practice is easier said than done
when constructing a big website that has some inherent
complexities. But, no doubt about it, the more you can achieve
it, the more impressive the result. Simplicity is a highly
skilled achievement in many fields of endeavour.

--
dorayme

On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 11:57:55 +1100, in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.stylesheets dorayme
<doraymeRidThis (AT) optusnet (DOT) com.au>
<doraymeRidThis-76F046.11575522122007 (AT) news-vip (DOT) optusnet.com.au> wrote:

| As for getting the image (permission is
| different issue), you just right click and save it to disk.

It is nice to know that you condone theft of intellectual property.
-- -------------------------------------------------------------
jnorthau (AT) yourpantsyahoo (DOT) com.au : Remove your pants to reply
-- -------------------------------------------------------------

In article <ofjao3hpojnn7jpu09jn93blrb547bu7pi (AT) 4ax (DOT) com>,
Jeff North <jnorthau (AT) yahoo (DOT) com.au> wrote:

On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 11:57:55 +1100, in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.stylesheets dorayme
doraymeRidThis (AT) optusnet (DOT) com.au
doraymeRidThis-76F046.11575522122007...ptusnet.com.au> wrote:

| As for getting the image (permission is
| different issue), you just right click and save it to disk.

It is nice to know that you condone theft of intellectual property.

It is not nice to know that you are so blinded by your holier
than thou preoccupations that you fail to distinguish between the
two issues of technical and moral as a logical distinction. Not
even with my help - look at what I said in brackets. Do you think
putting things in brackets means they are regarded as unimportant
full stop by the writer? As with many of you Holier than thou
moral types it usually does no good explaining.

But fool me, I will: Permission is one issue, technical how is
another issue. Discussing the technical aspect does not mean one
condones theft. If someone asks how to steal something and you
tell them, that is one thing. But if someone asks how to do
something that can be perfectly legal in any number of contexts
then there is not much wrong in telling them especially if one
actually reminds them of the legal issue. Of course, with types
like you, everyone and anyone is immediately under the suspicion
of the worst motivations.

Why don't you apologise? Or email me privately so I can get
better satisfaction at this outrage of yours. Please use capital
letters in the subject field so I notice it and use "Hit me Baby
with the filthiest language ever heard on earth!"

--
dorayme