Re: list redux

In article <u-KdnXsqP8bgsaXUnZ2dnUVZ_rfinZ2d (AT) earthlink (DOT) com>,
Jeff <jeff (AT) spam_me_not (DOT) com> wrote:

It seems to me that using background images for lists is acceptable.
And Dorayme has been pushing two column tables (I'm not buying for ease
of use reasons).

Just a small correction to that, dorayme - hey, that's me! - has not
been pushing, but rather saying, that there is nothing much wrong with
using a table if you cannot make do easily with a UL or OL.

Another thing, have you changed the name of this thread? If you have, is
this a good idea? I can't see what the context is exactly? There qwas a
thread about how to get list items (with or without bullets?) to the
edge of a containing block.

Another thing, you don't supply a URL or say what exact problem you are
solving here?

I think that you can make a bulleted list have exactly the appearance
you want by doing something like this (shown here with links, use span
if desired):

...
Seems much simpler that the recently discussed alternatives. Tested
only in Firefox and IE6 windows.

Nothing can be simpler than a one or two col table, so I assume you are
referring to other solutions (to what, I am not quite sure?)

--
dorayme

dorayme wrote:

In article <u-KdnXsqP8bgsaXUnZ2dnUVZ_rfinZ2d (AT) earthlink (DOT) com>,
Jeff <jeff (AT) spam_me_not (DOT) com> wrote:

It seems to me that using background images for lists is acceptable.
And Dorayme has been pushing two column tables (I'm not buying for ease
of use reasons).


Just a small correction to that, dorayme - hey, that's me! - has not
been pushing, but rather saying, that there is nothing much wrong with
using a table if you cannot make do easily with a UL or OL.

OK, I apologize for misstating.

Another thing, have you changed the name of this thread?

If you have, is

this a good idea?

Perhaps not. There's a couple of recent threads that had pretty much
run their course.

I can't see what the context is exactly? There qwas a

thread about how to get list items (with or without bullets?) to the
edge of a containing block.

Another thing, you don't supply a URL or say what exact problem you are
solving here?

There's an obvious problem of formatting bulleted lists in getting
all browsers to the same point.

I think that you can make a bulleted list have exactly the appearance
you want by doing something like this (shown here with links, use span
if desired):

...
Seems much simpler that the recently discussed alternatives. Tested
only in Firefox and IE6 windows.


Nothing can be simpler than a one or two col table, so I assume you are
referring to other solutions (to what, I am not quite sure?)

If you have a list already, why make a table? Now, there's a
difference in approach between the two of us because we have different
clients. I believe that you write all of the content html and I tend to
write none of it. Someone else (the client) writes/enters the content
and in that case it's better to stick to the list they know how to make
and style it to what is desired.

If I can't style this the way they want then they will wind up using
&bull; instead. With that said, I find that is *very rare* that the
default list styles are unacceptable. I find that the only time lists
need to be styled is when they are used for navigation, typically then
they look nothing like lists but occasionally they have to look like
lists just a little more refined!

Regards,
Jeff

In article <3aSdnV069ulWNKXUnZ2dnUVZ_o_inZ2d (AT) earthlink (DOT) com>,
Jeff <jeff (AT) spam_me_not (DOT) com> wrote:

dorayme wrote:

..you don't supply a URL or say what exact problem you are
solving here?

There's an obvious problem of formatting bulleted lists in getting
all browsers to the same point.

I see, OK, but because the thread was changed, it was not clear to me.

I think that you can make a bulleted list have exactly the appearance
you want by doing something like this (shown here with links, use span
if desired):

...
Seems much simpler that the recently discussed alternatives. Tested
only in Firefox and IE6 windows.


Nothing can be simpler than a one or two col table, so I assume you are
referring to other solutions (to what, I am not quite sure?)

If you have a list already, why make a table?

As I explained in the other thread, you would do this when you cannot
style the UL or OL the way you want.

Now, there's a
difference in approach between the two of us because we have different
clients. I believe that you write all of the content html and I tend to
write none of it. Someone else (the client) writes/enters the content
and in that case it's better to stick to the list they know how to make
and style it to what is desired.

Fair enough. In your case you are saying you are more or less stuck with
a UL and you are offering a solution about making ULs all look the same
across browsers. Perhaps if you put up a URL we can see if this is so.
Usually, cross-browser identity as far as bullets and margins and
paddings are concerned are very hard to find because of browser
differences, especially their code for how they place bullets.

I am not so sure which thread was changed now. There was a problem about
getting both UL bullets and OL numbers banged up against a container
left edge. People talked about this. I talked about getting both on the
same page in the same container close enough to the left edge of a
parent across browsers. I am not sure how your suggestion fits in to all
of this.

Please don't feel obliged though... It is a very vexing matter these ULs
and OLs! <g>

Quite frankly, I have sometimes wondered, in an Ockam sort of a way,
what the HTML and CSS world might have looked like had there simply not
been ULs or OLs and tables were *the* standard way to do these things. I
know of no great argument to show that the world is better for having
ULs and OLs. It might be that it is just a bit more finnicky and there
is more precision than is needed. You get to get bullets and numbers
automatically! Well, maybe that is nice, but I would have thought it
would not have been so hard to allow tables to acquire such a handy CSS
handle to do this.

Like some o so correct mechanics that fuss about getting absolutely the
most specialised tool for some little task when a more general one would
be quick and simple and at hand.

I am quite open to persuasion on this matter. Harder to convince me that
a table is *quite* the wrong tool, but this is another matter really.

--
dorayme

dorayme wrote:
Hello Dorayme,

<snip>

Now, there's a
difference in approach between the two of us because we have different
clients. I believe that you write all of the content html and I tend to
write none of it. Someone else (the client) writes/enters the content
and in that case it's better to stick to the list they know how to make
and style it to what is desired.


Fair enough. In your case you are saying you are more or less stuck with
a UL and you are offering a solution about making ULs all look the same
across browsers. Perhaps if you put up a URL we can see if this is so.
Usually, cross-browser identity as far as bullets and margins and
paddings are concerned are very hard to find because of browser
differences, especially their code for how they place bullets.

Yes, which is why my example, It absolutely looks the same from
browser to browser and there is nothing that you can do in a two column
table that couldn't be done with that. In fact there are presentation
options that aren't possible with a table.

I am not so sure which thread was changed now. There was a problem about
getting both UL bullets and OL numbers banged up against a container
left edge. People talked about this. I talked about getting both on the
same page in the same container close enough to the left edge of a
parent across browsers. I am not sure how your suggestion fits in to all
of this.

But you can put the bullet anywhere, just change the background
position. You can set the "indent" to anything and you can set the
offset to anything. Absolutely everything is settable. There is no
advantage that I see of with a table and there are strong advantages in
that you can make it look like anything without changing the markup.

With a table:

<tr><td><img src="bullet.gif"></td><td>text here...

Lets say you wanted the text to wrap *under* the bullet on the second
and subsequent lines. You'd have to rewrite the html, to what I don't
know. With a list, you just change the CSS. In fact that is a common
request I hear, particularly when you have a list with no bullets.

My argument is why rewrite the html to change the presentation when
you can do that in CSS?

Please don't feel obliged though... It is a very vexing matter these ULs
and OLs! <g

I like lists for navigation, here's a few sites I'm currently working
on with identical templates (with a column or two turned off) and the
navigation is a database generated list, the *only* difference is the CSS.

http://mercospirits.com/test/spirits/james_boag%27s_lager.html

http://www.spsatlanta.org/index.shtml
(all nav including the js flyout is a list)

http://ematings.com/test.html
(the one bullet nav item is a list)

I don't really like writing html which is why they are all the same.
For that matter the stylesheets are laid identically as well. You seem
to enjoy writing html and if I had *any* money I'd hire you if you were
available.

Quite frankly, I have sometimes wondered, in an Ockam sort of a way,
what the HTML and CSS world might have looked like had there simply not
been ULs or OLs and tables were *the* standard way to do these things.

Tables were revolutionary when NS2 came out. Before that there was no
way to position. There wasn't a lot of data on the web back then, so
presentation was what we thought they were for.

I

know of no great argument to show that the world is better for having
ULs and OLs.

Well there's a lot of things that look like lists, but I can see your
point about them also looking tabular.


It might be that it is just a bit more finnicky and there

is more precision than is needed. You get to get bullets and numbers
automatically! Well, maybe that is nice, but I would have thought it
would not have been so hard to allow tables to acquire such a handy CSS
handle to do this.

I've always been annoyed that you have to set an explicit class for
every cell beyond the second column if you want to style a "oolumn".

Perhaps there is something in CSS3 to that effect and in another 3 or
4 years I can use it!

Like some o so correct mechanics that fuss about getting absolutely the
most specialised tool for some little task when a more general one would
be quick and simple and at hand.

I like quick. I am so tired...

I am quite open to persuasion on this matter. Harder to convince me that
a table is *quite* the wrong tool, but this is another matter really.

Jeff

In article <_aOdnQRmbLQ6vKfUnZ2dnUVZ_uudnZ2d (AT) earthlink (DOT) com>,
Jeff <jeff (AT) spam_me_not (DOT) com> wrote:

My argument is why rewrite the html to change the presentation when
you can do that in CSS?

And a good argument it is. If you can make a change you want this way,
this is the way to do it.

--
dorayme