Re: Doctype / validation help please

Alex Bell wrote:

Thanks to you all. The URL is
http://pianoboe.net/ebooks/EbookTemplate03.html

On the page the first line is now commented out, and is the one which
gave one validation error.

If the DOCTYPE is not on the first line, older versions of IE will
render the page in quirks mode.

You don't need the line beginning "<?xml version" if the encoding is UTF-8.

Below that I have inserted the suggested doctype etc from the reference
Ed gave.

I would suggest that the whole DOCTYPE be on one line, just in case.
Older versions of IE *might* mess up otherwise, though I am not certain
of this. In any case, it does not hurt to put the whole DOCTYPE line on
one line.

This gives me six validation errors on the exact same HTML. So
far as I can tell five of those errors refer to lines which are in the
new material I just pasted in.

Most or all of the errors are because you have two HTML tags. Dump the
second HTML tag.

Finally, and I expose my ignorance here, what harm will be done if I get
exasperated and just go back to using the commented out doctype in the
first line of the page?

That will force standards mode, which is good.

C A Upsdell wrote:

Alex Bell wrote:

Thanks to you all. The URL is
http://pianoboe.net/ebooks/EbookTemplate03.html

On the page the first line is now commented out, and is the one which
gave one validation error.

If the DOCTYPE is not on the first line, older versions of IE will
render the page in quirks mode.

You don't need the line beginning "<?xml version" if the encoding is UTF-8.

Below that I have inserted the suggested doctype etc from the
reference Ed gave.

I would suggest that the whole DOCTYPE be on one line, just in case.
Older versions of IE *might* mess up otherwise, though I am not certain
of this. In any case, it does not hurt to put the whole DOCTYPE line on
one line.

This gives me six validation errors on the exact same HTML. So far as
I can tell five of those errors refer to lines which are in the new
material I just pasted in.

Most or all of the errors are because you have two HTML tags. Dump the
second HTML tag.

Finally, and I expose my ignorance here, what harm will be done if I
get exasperated and just go back to using the commented out doctype in
the first line of the page?

That will force standards mode, which is good.


Thanks to you both. After I posted my previous post I went back to read

Jukka's post in more detail, and thought about. I then spent a very
frustrating hour going to the reference Ed gave me, and copying and
pasting various doctypes into my page after commenting out the previous
one - I didn't know about the requirement that doctype be on the first
line. At least one of the doctypes required that the trailing slash in
<meta /> and <img /> be taken out, and some required that it be left in.
This makes no sense at all to me, so I think I'll stick to ebooks.

I'll try removing the second html tag anyway.

--
Regards, Alex

Alex Bell wrote:

Thanks to you both. After I posted my previous post I went back to read
Jukka's post in more detail, and thought about. I then spent a very
frustrating hour going to the reference Ed gave me, and copying and
pasting various doctypes into my page after commenting out the previous
one - I didn't know about the requirement that doctype be on the first
line. At least one of the doctypes required that the trailing slash in
meta /> and <img /> be taken out, and some required that it be left in.
This makes no sense at all to me, so I think I'll stick to ebooks.

The trailing slash is for those XHTML tags which do not have an end tag.

On 13 juil, 20:31, C A Upsdell <cupsd... (AT) nospam (DOT) not> wrote:

Alex Bell wrote:

Thanks to you all. The URL is
http://pianoboe.net/ebooks/EbookTemplate03.html

On the page the first line is now commented out, and is the one which
gave one validation error.

If the DOCTYPE is not on the first line, older versions of IE will
render the page in quirks mode.

This is a bug in IE and it happens in recent versions of IE (including
IE 8) as well.

http://www.gtalbot.org/BrowserBugsSection/MSIE7Bugs/#bug140
http://www.gtalbot.org/BrowserBugsSection/MSIE7Bugs/#bug170
http://www.gtalbot.org/BrowserBugsSection/MSIE8Bugs/#bug99
http://www.gtalbot.org/BrowserBugsSection/MSIE8Bugs/#bug196

You don't need the line beginning "<?xml version" if the encoding is UTF-8.

Below that I have inserted the suggested doctype etc from the reference
Ed gave.

I would suggest that the whole DOCTYPE be on one line, just in case.

On one line, [preferably] without carriage returns. But the line with
the doctype declaration can wrap; in fact, it usually (and very often)
wraps onto the next line. 121 characters is usually well over the
normal number of columns in standard text editors (or an application
displaying source code).

Older versions of IE *might* mess up otherwise, though I am not certain
of this.
*In any case, it does not hurt to put the whole DOCTYPE line on
one line.

This gives me six validation errors on the exact same HTML. So
far as I can tell five of those errors refer to lines which are in the
new material I just pasted in.

Most or all of the errors are because you have two HTML tags. *Dump the
second HTML tag.

Finally, and I expose my ignorance here, what harm will be done if I get
exasperated and just go back to using the commented out doctype in the
first line of the page?

That will force standards mode, which is good.

No. Commenting the first doctype declaration which is before the xml
declaration will be reported as a validation markup error and will
also trigger backward-compatible "quirks" rendering mode in IE 8. And
this is not reasonable here.

Again, best would be to go with HTML 4 Strict as Ed Mullen suggested.

regards, Gérard
--
Internet Explorer 7 bugs: 178 bugs so far
http://www.gtalbot.org/BrowserBugsSection/MSIE7Bugs/
Internet Explorer 8 bugs: 53 bugs so far
http://www.gtalbot.org/BrowserBugsSection/MSIE8Bugs/

GTalbot wrote:

On 13 juil, 20:31, C A Upsdell <cupsd... (AT) nospam (DOT) not> wrote:
Alex Bell wrote:

Thanks to you all. The URL is
http://pianoboe.net/ebooks/EbookTemplate03.html
On the page the first line is now commented out, and is the one which
gave one validation error.
If the DOCTYPE is not on the first line, older versions of IE will
render the page in quirks mode.

This is a bug in IE and it happens in recent versions of IE (including
IE 8) as well.

http://www.gtalbot.org/BrowserBugsSection/MSIE7Bugs/#bug140
http://www.gtalbot.org/BrowserBugsSection/MSIE7Bugs/#bug170
http://www.gtalbot.org/BrowserBugsSection/MSIE8Bugs/#bug99
http://www.gtalbot.org/BrowserBugsSection/MSIE8Bugs/#bug196

You don't need the line beginning "<?xml version" if the encoding is UTF-8.

Below that I have inserted the suggested doctype etc from the reference
Ed gave.
I would suggest that the whole DOCTYPE be on one line, just in case.


On one line, [preferably] without carriage returns. But the line with
the doctype declaration can wrap; in fact, it usually (and very often)
wraps onto the next line. 121 characters is usually well over the
normal number of columns in standard text editors (or an application
displaying source code).

Older versions of IE *might* mess up otherwise, though I am not certain
of this.
In any case, it does not hurt to put the whole DOCTYPE line on
one line.

This gives me six validation errors on the exact same HTML. So
far as I can tell five of those errors refer to lines which are in the
new material I just pasted in.
Most or all of the errors are because you have two HTML tags. Dump the
second HTML tag.

Finally, and I expose my ignorance here, what harm will be done if I get
exasperated and just go back to using the commented out doctype in the
first line of the page?
That will force standards mode, which is good.

No. Commenting the first doctype declaration which is before the xml
declaration will be reported as a validation markup error and will
also trigger backward-compatible "quirks" rendering mode in IE 8. And
this is not reasonable here.

Again, best would be to go with HTML 4 Strict as Ed Mullen suggested.

regards, Gérard
--
Internet Explorer 7 bugs: 178 bugs so far
http://www.gtalbot.org/BrowserBugsSection/MSIE7Bugs/
Internet Explorer 8 bugs: 53 bugs so far
http://www.gtalbot.org/BrowserBugsSection/MSIE8Bugs/

Thanks, Gérard, that's what I've done - as well as making sure that the
doctype is on the first line.

--
Regards, Alex

In article
<4a10ec3c-c4ce-4327-92f3-089e4d44a26e (AT) o6g2000yqj (DOT) googlegroups.com>,
GTalbot <newsgroup (AT) gtalbot (DOT) org> wrote:

If the DOCTYPE is not on the first line, older versions of IE will
render the page in quirks mode.

This is a bug in IE and it happens in recent versions of IE (including
IE 8) as well.

Is this bug something that many people knew and talked about before and
during the time that IE8 was being developed? Is the development of IE8
done in some sort of deep underground bunker somewhere with limited
connections to the outside world?

--
dorayme

dorayme wrote:

In article
4a10ec3c-c4ce-4327-92f3-089e4d44a26e...oglegroups.com>,
GTalbot <newsgroup (AT) gtalbot (DOT) org> wrote:

If the DOCTYPE is not on the first line, older versions of IE will
render the page in quirks mode.

This is a bug in IE and it happens in recent versions of IE
(including IE 8) as well.

Is this bug something that many people knew and talked about before
and during the time that IE8 was being developed?

Yes.

Is the development
of IE8 done in some sort of deep underground bunker somewhere with
limited connections to the outside world?

Yes.

rf wrote:

dorayme wrote:
In article
4a10ec3c-c4ce-4327-92f3-089e4d44a26e...oglegroups.com>,
GTalbot <newsgroup (AT) gtalbot (DOT) org> wrote:

If the DOCTYPE is not on the first line, older versions of IE will
render the page in quirks mode.
This is a bug in IE and it happens in recent versions of IE
(including IE 8) as well.
Is this bug something that many people knew and talked about before
and during the time that IE8 was being developed?

Yes.

Is the development
of IE8 done in some sort of deep underground bunker somewhere with
limited connections to the outside world?

Yes.

They were in Redmond-Space where even the Laws of Physics do not apply.


--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com

dorayme wrote:

If the DOCTYPE is not on the first line, older versions of IE will
render the page in quirks mode.
This is a bug in IE and it happens in recent versions of IE (including
IE 8) as well.

Is this bug something that many people knew and talked about before and
during the time that IE8 was being developed? Is the development of IE8
done in some sort of deep underground bunker somewhere with limited
connections to the outside world?

Yes, people have known about the bug for a long time.

As for IE8 being developed in a deep underground bunker: probably.
After IE7 was released, Microsoft promised that it would be much more
open about its work on IE8, after which Microsoft crawled back into its
secret bunker and only emerged after most of the IE8 changes had been
decided.

On 16 juil, 05:14, dorayme <doraymeRidT... (AT) optusnet (DOT) com.au> wrote:

In article
4a10ec3c-c4ce-4327-92f3-089e4d44a... (AT) o6g2000yqj (DOT) googlegroups.com>,

GTalbot <newsgr... (AT) gtalbot (DOT) org> wrote:
If the DOCTYPE is not on the first line, older versions of IE will
render the page in quirks mode.

This is a bug in IE and it happens in recent versions of IE (including
IE 8) as well.

Is this bug something that many people knew and talked about before and
during the time that IE8 was being developed?

Such bug is not very widely known.
Dean Edwards and Ingo Turski mentioned such bug in IE Blog in sept.
2005 and march 2008.

Is the development of IE8
done in some sort of deep underground bunker somewhere with limited
connections to the outside world?

I reported the bugs and explicitly asked that those be fixed for the
final release of IE 8 and explained why on January 6th 2009 to be
precise (see the comments in bug 382800:
connect.microsoft.com/IE/feedback/ViewFeedback.aspx?FeedbackID=382800

I recently mentioned it again because someone asked about it:

blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2009/07/01/ie-compatibility-list-
pruning.aspx#9813953

regards, Gérard
--
Internet Explorer 7 bugs: 178 bugs so far
http://www.gtalbot.org/BrowserBugsSection/MSIE7Bugs/
Internet Explorer 8 bugs: 53 bugs so far
http://www.gtalbot.org/BrowserBugsSection/MSIE8Bugs/