Re: containing floating img height within a div

Jeff wrote:

If you advise people to use 1 em, because it is
"right", bear in mind that you are almost surly dooming them to
commercial failure.

Please show the research that supports this claim.

--
Berg

On Feb 2, 3:10*pm, "Jonathan N. Little" <lws4... (AT) central (DOT) net> wrote:

Kevin Scholl wrote:
So the question becomes, do you leave everything at the default 1em/
100%, which most people do in fact consider large, for the sake of the
minority? Or do you design sites that can be effectively zoomed, safe
in the knowledge that the small subset of users that might need to
enlarge knows how to do so? I can appreciate Berg's viewpoint, and
sympathize with poor vision (as my own is horrific without corrective
lenses), but if the site can be zoomed and remain usable, it seems
much more logical to me to go with the majority.


If all site designers would set the base *normal* font size on their
site to *normal*, i.e., 100% or 1em, then for the most part zooming
would be unnecessary except when using a public or someone else's
computer. Normal would be your *normal*! No need to zoom from site to site.

That was my point, though, Jonathan. Most people don't know how to set
their own normal. For them, 100% or 1em would be the default browser
setting (typically 16px), which most people find too large.

On Feb 2, 4:10*pm, Bergamot <berga... (AT) visi (DOT) com> wrote:

Kevin Scholl wrote:

I do have a question for Berg (or anyone else who sets their minimum
font rather larger than the "norm". I'm curious what you do about
operating system settings, since most of them default to font sizes
even smaller than most Web sites?

Odd question, I think. If I have trouble with small text on some web
sites, why would you think I'd be satisfied with default system
settings? I changed those that needed adjusting to something that works
better for me, just like I changed default browser settings to suit me.

I wouldn't think that you WOULD be satisfied, hence the question. Do
you simply utilize the OS settings ("Large Text" and such), or do you
have some special software that alters text size in OS components?

My system is set up perfectly for *me*. The only trouble I ever have is
with some web sites. Other apps give me no such grief, as long as they
use native Windows widgets and system settings for their GUI (not all
do). For the few that don't, most are so familiar to me that I don't
really need to read anything in the UI.

Bergamot wrote:

Jeff wrote:

If you advise people to use 1 em, because it is "right", bear in mind
that you are almost surly dooming them to commercial failure.

Please show the research that supports this claim.

Hell, I can tell you from personal experience!

Show me a commercial 3 column site that uses 1em throughout. Not a
very small business site or an educational site.

Now, I've been fired before from following the "good" advice here (it
too months to get rehired), I take it a bit personal that we are
propagating what is commercial death.

Jeff

Jeff wrote:

Bergamot wrote:
Jeff wrote:
If you advise people to use 1 em, because it is "right", bear in mind
that you are almost surly dooming them to commercial failure.
Please show the research that supports this claim.

Hell, I can tell you from personal experience!

Anecdotal accounts are irrelevant. I have plenty of my own that say the
opposite.

Please show an unbiased report that supports the "commercial failure"
claim. And I don't care what other sites do. They were made by the same
dee-ziner lemmings that you are following.

--
Berg

Kevin Scholl wrote:

On Feb 2, 3:10 pm, "Jonathan N. Little" <lws4... (AT) central (DOT) net> wrote:
Kevin Scholl wrote:
So the question becomes, do you leave everything at the default 1em/
100%, which most people do in fact consider large, for the sake of the
minority? Or do you design sites that can be effectively zoomed, safe
in the knowledge that the small subset of users that might need to
enlarge knows how to do so? I can appreciate Berg's viewpoint, and
sympathize with poor vision (as my own is horrific without corrective
lenses), but if the site can be zoomed and remain usable, it seems
much more logical to me to go with the majority.

If all site designers would set the base *normal* font size on their
site to *normal*, i.e., 100% or 1em, then for the most part zooming
would be unnecessary except when using a public or someone else's
computer. Normal would be your *normal*! No need to zoom from site to site.

That was my point, though, Jonathan. Most people don't know how to set
their own normal. For them, 100% or 1em would be the default browser
setting (typically 16px), which most people find too large.

So having designers scale the font willy-nilly to their preferences is
somehow better? If the base font is always set to 100%|1em then for each
site the base text would always be whatever the browser default. If it
16px then 16px 24px then 24px 10px then 10px. Whatever it would be
consistent. If "people" find too large then they will learn how to set
the font to more to their linking. Once done they would not have to futz
with it again. Even clueless IE users will find "Tools|View>Text Size.
Imagine if every application on your system had a different text size at
the whim of the programmer for dialog boxes! There is a reason why all
work off of a system wide default for the UI. Set once and forget it...

Second point. If you find the text too large and you are too clueless to
set your preferences you can still *read* the page...


--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com

Kevin Scholl wrote:

Do
you simply utilize the OS settings ("Large Text" and such), or do you
have some special software that alters text size in OS components?

No need for any special software, though someone with less visual acuity
than me could need it.

--
Berg

Kevin Scholl wrote:

I wouldn't think that you WOULD be satisfied, hence the question. Do
you simply utilize the OS settings ("Large Text" and such),

Of course! Why do you think there are UI guidelines on app design for
Windows|Mac|Linux. Without a system-wide setting you would have to
configure each app independently like in the old DOS days... Why promote
such for the Web?


--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com

On Feb 3, 2:01*pm, "Jonathan N. Little" <lws4... (AT) central (DOT) net> wrote:

Kevin Scholl wrote:
I wouldn't think that you WOULD be satisfied, hence the question. Do
you simply utilize the OS settings ("Large Text" and such),

Of course! Why do you think there are UI guidelines on app design for
Windows|Mac|Linux. Without a system-wide setting you would have to
configure each app independently like in the old DOS days... Why promote
such for the Web?

I'm not promoting anything, either way. I'm simply asking a question.
Sheesh.

On Feb 3, 1:51*pm, "Jonathan N. Little" <lws4... (AT) central (DOT) net> wrote:

Kevin Scholl wrote:
On Feb 2, 3:10 pm, "Jonathan N. Little" <lws4... (AT) central (DOT) net> wrote:
Kevin Scholl wrote:
So the question becomes, do you leave everything at the default 1em/
100%, which most people do in fact consider large, for the sake of the
minority? Or do you design sites that can be effectively zoomed, safe
in the knowledge that the small subset of users that might need to
enlarge knows how to do so? I can appreciate Berg's viewpoint, and
sympathize with poor vision (as my own is horrific without corrective
lenses), but if the site can be zoomed and remain usable, it seems
much more logical to me to go with the majority.

If all site designers would set the base *normal* font size on their
site to *normal*, i.e., 100% or 1em, then for the most part zooming
would be unnecessary except when using a public or someone else's
computer. Normal would be your *normal*! No need to zoom from site to site.

That was my point, though, Jonathan. Most people don't know how to set
their own normal. For them, 100% or 1em would be the default browser
setting (typically 16px), which most people find too large.

So having designers scale the font willy-nilly to their preferences is
somehow better? If the base font is always set to 100%|1em then for each

I don't believe I stated that any one methodology is "better" than
another. As I stated previously, I believe the important aspect is
that the text on a site CAN be resized, be it up or down, without
tearing the layout apart. As to the starting point for that text size
-- 1em/100% or designer-specified -- I find that effective arguments
are made either way, and appreciate both. Based on my own extensive
experience, and the current state of the Web and its users, I have my
leanings, but I don't claim a clear-cut right or wrong.

site the base text would always be whatever the browser default. If it
16px then 16px 24px then 24px 10px then 10px. Whatever it would be
consistent. If "people" find too large then they will learn how to set
the font to more to their linking. Once done they would not have to futz

But unfortunately, they don't learn.

with it again. Even clueless IE users will find "Tools|View>Text Size.
Imagine if every application on your system had a different text size at
the whim of the programmer for dialog boxes! There is a reason why all
work off of a system wide default for the UI. Set once and forget it...

Second point. If you find the text too large and you are too clueless to
set your preferences you can still *read* the page...

This is true.