Convincing someone that em is better than pt

I'm working on a site and the client said he thinks "the main title should
be around 28pt and the subtitle probably 18pt". I know pt's are bad, and I
want to convince him that he should NOT be sizing the headers with pts (or
perhaps at all), but I was wondering if there is a website that describes
why it's bad (instead of trying to explain it myself in a lengthy email).
Anyone have a resource I could use?

Thanks,
Peter Foti

Peter Foti wrote:

I'm working on a site and the client said he thinks "the main title should
be around 28pt and the subtitle probably 18pt". I know pt's are bad, and I
want to convince him that he should NOT be sizing the headers with pts (or
perhaps at all), but I was wondering if there is a website that describes
why it's bad (instead of trying to explain it myself in a lengthy email).
Anyone have a resource I could use?

it's very simple...different systems will show pt or px
differently...often very differently, so that what looks good on your
system may look awful on theirs...what you can be sure of is that they
have a default font size that they van read...so you have to base text
sizes by making them proportional to that...which means em, or better
still %

--
eric
www.ericjarvis.co.uk
"live fast, die only if strictly necessary"

On Fri, 31 Oct 2003, Peter Foti wrote:

I'm working on a site and the client said he thinks "the main title should
be around 28pt and the subtitle probably 18pt". I know pt's are bad, and I
want to convince him that he should NOT be sizing the headers with pts

With respect, I think you're addressing the wrong issue. Merely
trying to convince someone who, by their own testimony, seems to be
designing for paper publishing, that they ought not to be using pt
units is not going to be a success, IMHO. The first priority is to
explain to them that the web is NOT paper publishing, and that choices
that would be absolutely the right thing (don't be afraid to
compliment them on their choice for that!) are simply inappropriate
for web. If you get a glimmer of comprehension, then you can work
from there. If you don't, then the choice seems to be to either grit
your teeth and do what they ask, or run away.

perhaps at all), but I was wondering if there is a website that describes
why it's bad (instead of trying to explain it myself in a lengthy email).

My suggestion would be, Google for "the web is not paper".
http://www.westciv.com/style_master/...oil/not_paper/

On Fri, 31 Oct 2003, Alan J. Flavell wrote:

My suggestion would be, Google for "the web is not paper".
http://www.westciv.com/style_master/...oil/not_paper/

Correction - don't read _only_ that URL: do read the other
pages near the top of that Google response also.

"Alan J. Flavell" <flavell (AT) ph (DOT) gla.ac.uk> wrote

On Fri, 31 Oct 2003, Peter Foti wrote:

I'm working on a site and the client said he thinks "the main title
should
be around 28pt and the subtitle probably 18pt". I know pt's are bad,
and I
want to convince him that he should NOT be sizing the headers with pts

With respect, I think you're addressing the wrong issue. Merely
trying to convince someone who, by their own testimony, seems to be
designing for paper publishing, that they ought not to be using pt
units is not going to be a success, IMHO. The first priority is to
explain to them that the web is NOT paper publishing, and that choices
that would be absolutely the right thing (don't be afraid to
compliment them on their choice for that!) are simply inappropriate
for web.

Alan, this was precisely the issue that I wanted to address. I think my
original post just did not reflect that well.

My suggestion would be, Google for "the web is not paper".
http://www.westciv.com/style_master/...oil/not_paper/

Thanks, I will give this a shot. This is the type of suggestion I was
hoping for.

Regards,
Peter Foti

In article <vq5otsimj6bn93 (AT) corp (DOT) supernews.com> in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.stylesheets, Peter Foti
<peterf (AT) systolicnetworks (DOT) com> wrote:

I'm working on a site and the client said he thinks "the main title should
be around 28pt and the subtitle probably 18pt". I know pt's are bad, and I
want to convince him that he should NOT be sizing the headers with pts (or
perhaps at all), but I was wondering if there is a website that describes
why it's bad (instead of trying to explain it myself in a lengthy email).
Anyone have a resource I could use?

I know you're asking for ways to persuade him, but might it not be
easier to give him what he wants? No, I don't mean actually code in
points. But (unless his browser settings are _really_ extreme) you
ought to be able to produce a good-looking page in ems, which just
happens to work out with headings in his browser at about the size
he wants to see.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com/
HTML 4.01 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/
validator: http://validator.w3.org/
CSS 2 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/
2.1 changes: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/changes.html
validator: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/

Eric Jarvis wrote:

it's very simple...different systems will show pt or px
differently...often very differently, so that what looks good on your
system may look awful on theirs...

http://style.cleverchimp.com/font_si.../font_wars.GIF

--
David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/

Stan Brown wrote:

In article <vq5otsimj6bn93 (AT) corp (DOT) supernews.com> in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.stylesheets, Peter Foti
peterf (AT) systolicnetworks (DOT) com> wrote:
I'm working on a site and the client said he thinks "the main title
should be around 28pt and the subtitle probably 18pt".
...
I know you're asking for ways to persuade him, but might it not be
easier to give him what he wants? No, I don't mean actually code in
points. But (unless his browser settings are _really_ extreme) you
ought to be able to produce a good-looking page in ems, which just
happens to work out with headings in his browser at about the size
he wants to see.

It's a useful technique and one I have used to good effect on several
occasions ;o)

--
William Tasso - http://WilliamTasso.com

"William Tasso" <news27 (AT) tbdata (DOT) com> wrote

Stan Brown wrote:
In article <vq5otsimj6bn93 (AT) corp (DOT) supernews.com> in
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.stylesheets, Peter Foti
peterf (AT) systolicnetworks (DOT) com> wrote:
I'm working on a site and the client said he thinks "the main title
should be around 28pt and the subtitle probably 18pt".
...
I know you're asking for ways to persuade him, but might it not be
easier to give him what he wants? No, I don't mean actually code in
points. But (unless his browser settings are _really_ extreme) you
ought to be able to produce a good-looking page in ems, which just
happens to work out with headings in his browser at about the size
he wants to see.

It's a useful technique and one I have used to good effect on several
occasions ;o)

Yes, those are "presentation" techniques. *grin* i.e. "...you won't notice
a change or at the very least - minimal differences". It's odd really, the
client often doesn't concern themselves of how *everyone* else sees their
page, only what they see. Well, maybe that isn't odd.

Perhaps another idea, is to go with the em's or %'s and see how the client
likes it. Just do a small sample and say, "like this?" The bottom line is
that the client wants the size to be x,y,z but how you get or interpret
x,y,z *shouldn't* really be the issue. : =)

Isabelle
http://www.is.visisoul.com