A four-level page model

Good advice is frequently given in c.i.w.a.* on page structure: matters
such as separation of content from presentation, graceful degradation,
non-dependence on Flash etc. For some while I've wondering whether that
could be transformed into a layered model: something that would help
people to form a mental picture of how a complex page should be put
together.

I've had a go at this:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/pagemodel.html

It's not that easy to get the concepts over concisely though. I'd
appreciate feedback, both on the model itself and the way it is
presented. Is it something that could be useful to people trying to
achieve wide accessibility?

--
Stephen Poley

http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/

Stephen Poley wrote:

Good advice is frequently given in c.i.w.a.* on page structure: matters
such as separation of content from presentation, graceful degradation,
non-dependence on Flash etc. For some while I've wondering whether that
could be transformed into a layered model: something that would help
people to form a mental picture of how a complex page should be put
together.

Data layer -->
interpretation (design) layer -->
prettification (de-zyner) layer

I've had a go at this:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/pagemodel.html

I think you're too heavily influenced by the CIWAHians and their
constant put down of CSS as "mere presentation". Presentation is about
interpreting data as well as prettifying websites.

Here's one the author could have done without Java, with a very big
and messy HTML table and some clever CSS:

http://physci.org/applet/PToEApplet.htm

And here's one I could have done without XML & CSS2, by throwing a lot
of class="..." at HTML (but that would still *need* to use CSS1), or
by using lots of FONTs:

http://users.tpg.com.au/karl6740/stevewaugh/CSS-EM.xml

Explain how these pages would be better if their data layers were in
HTML, not Java or XML?

It's not that easy to get the concepts over concisely though. I'd
appreciate feedback, both on the model itself and the way it is
presented. Is it something that could be useful to people trying to
achieve wide accessibility?

Karl Smith wrote:

Stephen Poley wrote:

Good advice is frequently given in c.i.w.a.* on page structure:
....
Here's one the author could have done without Java, with a very big
and messy HTML table and some clever CSS:

http://physci.org/applet/PToEApplet.htm

(chuckles) Since you mention it.
http://www.1point1c.org/chemistry/

--
Andrew Thompson
* http://www.PhySci.org/ Open-source software suite
* http://www.PhySci.org/codes/ Web & IT Help
* http://www.1point1C.org/ Science & Technology

Andrew Thompson wrote:

Karl Smith wrote:
Stephen Poley wrote:

Good advice is frequently given in c.i.w.a.* on page structure:
...
Here's one the author could have done without Java, with a very big
and messy HTML table and some clever CSS:

http://physci.org/applet/PToEApplet.htm

(chuckles) Since you mention it.
http://www.1point1c.org/chemistry/

OH, and I should point out that whatever
cleverness may be in the CSS is due to a
thread from c.i.w.a.s
http://groups.google.com/groups?th=b43a8df8a99412bd
[ though all faults and any lack of
validation I take complete credit for.. ]

--
Andrew Thompson
* http://www.PhySci.org/ Open-source software suite
* http://www.PhySci.org/codes/ Web & IT Help
* http://www.1point1C.org/ Science & Technology

On Mon, 8 Feb 2004, Karl Smith wrote:

I think you're too heavily influenced by the CIWAHians and their
constant put down of CSS as "mere presentation".

I think that's putting an unfair slant on the issue. I don't know
anyone who objects to a visually attractive presentation, but the
usual counsel it not to make interpretation of the content solely
dependent on the CSS, in other words to treat the CSS as maybe
desirable, even highly desirable - but in the ultimate analysis:
optional.

Presentation is about
interpreting data as well as prettifying websites.

Then you'll need to provide some alternative "interpretation" of the
data for the situations where the CSS is inapplicable.

Here's one the author could have done without Java,

Hang on - how did we suddenly jump ship from CSS to Java?

There are some kinds of material that simply cannot be done in HTML,
with or without CSS. It would be unrealistic to pretend otherwise. On
the one hand that's no excuse for making stuff critically dependent on
Java (or Flash, whatever) when they _could_ equally well have been
done in HTML; but on the other hand that's no reason to try to outlaw
Java etc. (for consenting readers) when it's an appropriate solution
(provided, of course, that one fulfils whatever the local requirements
may be for providing an accessible alternative).

Stephen Poley wrote:

... a layered model: something that would help
people to form a mental picture of how a complex page should be put
together.

I've had a go at this:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/pagemodel.html

Here's the annotated version:
http://users.tpg.com.au/karl6740/temp/pagemodel.html
There should be enough abrasive comments there for you.

--
Karl Smith.

"Andrew Thompson" <SeeMySites (AT) www (DOT) invalid> wrote:

Karl Smith wrote:
...
Here's one the author could have done without Java, with a very big
and messy HTML table and some clever CSS:

http://physci.org/applet/PToEApplet.htm

(chuckles) Since you mention it.
http://www.1point1c.org/chemistry/

OH, and I should point out that whatever
cleverness may be in the CSS is due to a
thread from c.i.w.a.s
http://groups.google.com/groups?th=b43a8df8a99412bd

Never saw that at the time, I've been away from this NG for a while :-)
I much prefer the Java version (and I hate Java).

Karl Smith wrote:

"Andrew Thompson" <SeeMySites (AT) www (DOT) invalid> wrote:

Karl Smith wrote:
...
Here's one the author could have done without Java, with a very big
and messy HTML table and some clever CSS:

http://physci.org/applet/PToEApplet.htm

(chuckles) Since you mention it.
http://www.1point1c.org/chemistry/
....
...I much prefer the Java version (and I hate Java).

That indicates to me that you _detest_ the
HTML version (I am in the process of hiding
most of my Java behind the scenes on the
server in favor of HTML/CSS where practical).

So, is it the 'messy HTML', or the (non?) clever
CSS you dislike more?

[ ...I suppose you cannot please all
the people all the time. ;-) ]

--
Andrew Thompson
* http://www.PhySci.org/ Open-source software suite
* http://www.PhySci.org/codes/ Web & IT Help
* http://www.1point1C.org/ Science & Technology

On 9 Feb 2004 05:31:35 -0800, google-2003-03 (AT) kjsmith (DOT) com (Karl Smith)
wrote:

Here's the annotated version:
http://users.tpg.com.au/karl6740/temp/pagemodel.html
There should be enough abrasive comments there for you.

Yes, I get that impression! I'll mull over them for a while.

--
Stephen Poley

http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/

Karl Smith wrote:

Stephen Poley wrote:


... a layered model: something that would help
people to form a mental picture of how a complex page should be put
together.

I've had a go at this:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/pagemodel.html


Here's the annotated version:
http://users.tpg.com.au/karl6740/temp/pagemodel.html
There should be enough abrasive comments there for you.

When did Nielsen say that scrolling is evil? Must be a loong time ago,
if ever.