Form

In article
<9e1d9023-cccf-477f-b375-39493baa75a5 (AT) l16g2000pra (DOT) googlegroups.com>,
shapper <mdmoura (AT) gmail (DOT) com> wrote:

On Apr 28, 11:35*am, Jeff <jeff_th... (AT) att (DOT) net> wrote:
* No. It is tabular data (rows of label => field). It's ideally suited.
Tabular data isn't just spreadsheet stuff, tabular data can have any
number of columns or anything in them.

* *Dorayme's advice was exactly right.

Ok, I think I will go for tables then.

And here is one more option (Definition lists :-)):
http://www.clagnut.com/blog/241/

His:

<http://clagnut.com/sandbox/dl-form-example.html>

is not exactly *the most spectacular showcase* for the claimed
flexibility over tables!

I am not claiming that you could not have a form that needed
flexibility, but most forms don't need such fancy doodle dandy. (What is
Portuguese for "fancy doodle dandy" btw?)

--
dorayme

On Apr 29, 3:14*am, dorayme <doraymeRidT... (AT) optusnet (DOT) com.au> wrote:

His:
http://clagnut.com/sandbox/dl-form-example.html
is not exactly *the most spectacular showcase* for the claimed
flexibility over tables!

I have been looking around and checking the source of some "big" web
sites.
I see all type of approaches.

Dorayme I am not a critic of using tables.
I am just trying to use a more flexible approach ...
I am still looking at many options.

Definition lists, for me, have a problem:
It is not possible to get a row based on dd and dt.
It is more straight forward using an OL or UL ...
.... and of course, tables beat all in this case.

I am looking for a form that I know but I can't find the url ...
I will post it here as soon as I find it.

I am not claiming that you could not have a form that needed
flexibility, but most forms don't need such fancy doodle dandy. (What is
Portuguese for "fancy doodle dandy" btw?)

I don't know ... :-)
I don't think we have a translation for that. :-P

Thanks,
Miguel

I found a form that I saw a long time ago:

http://beta.ksscholl.com/jquery/form2col.html
http://beta.ksscholl.com/jquery/formvalidate.html

What do you think?

On Apr 29, 7:59*pm, Gregor Kofler <use... (AT) gregorkofler (DOT) com> wrote:

shapper meinte:

I found a form that I saw a long time ago:

http://beta.ksscholl.com/jquery/form2col.html
http://beta.ksscholl.com/jquery/formvalidate.html

What do you think?

Breaks horribly, if the labels need two lines (zoom a bit...)

As the developer fo those examples, I wouldn't say "horribly", but
yes, they do break if zoomed beyond a certain point. The applications
for which those form templates were created were understood to have
short labels (labels should, by logical definition, be short), so it
wasn't an issue. The available space can be easily adjusted in the CSS
if necessary, however. I've actually done so (as well as made the
default text larger) on some projects; depends on the requirements.

Understand, of course, that those pages are merely examples of one way
to structure a form. As far as I'm concerned, tables are viable, as
are several other methods. I personally don't really think any one is
clearly superior to another in all aspects.

Kevin

On 04/30/09 10:12, Kevin Scholl wrote:

On Apr 29, 7:59 pm, Gregor Kofler <use... (AT) gregorkofler (DOT) com> wrote:
shapper meinte:

I found a form that I saw a long time ago:

http://beta.ksscholl.com/jquery/form2col.html
http://beta.ksscholl.com/jquery/formvalidate.html

What do you think?

Breaks horribly, if the labels need two lines (zoom a bit...)

As the developer fo those examples, I wouldn't say "horribly", but

Then I don't think you're seeing what I'm seeing. When the labels
need two lines, they start to interfere with the other rows in
the table, such that you can't tell what the labels are or what
they are associated with.

If it's not "horrible", I don't understand the meaning of that word :-)

On Apr 30, 3:51*pm, Gregor Kofler <use... (AT) gregorkofler (DOT) com> wrote:

Kevin Scholl meinte:

On Apr 29, 7:59 pm, Gregor Kofler <use... (AT) gregorkofler (DOT) com> wrote:
http://beta.ksscholl.com/jquery/formvalidate.html
Breaks horribly, if the labels need two lines (zoom a bit...)

As the developer fo those examples, I wouldn't say "horribly", but
yes, they do break if zoomed beyond a certain point.

Zoom doesn't need to be /that/ severe (must be around 130% of the
original size). Then it breaks, well if not horribly, then "badly" (for
example the "Number" of the "Social Securities Number" label, ends up
with the Zip Code).

I had to zoom five steps in Firefox before there was any wrapping.
Generally speaking, I try to make sure nothing breaks within three
steps of zoom. Of course, this was from its default size, which is
admittedly small, so that should probably be taken into consideration.

The applications
for which those form templates were created were understood to have
short labels (labels should, by logical definition, be short), so it
wasn't an issue. The available space can be easily adjusted in the CSS
if necessary, however. I've actually done so (as well as made the
default text larger) on some projects; depends on the requirements.

Perhaps using sizes in dimensions that scale easily (em or %) would
already help.

Perhaps. This was an initial attempt at this particular method, and I
did indeed set the widths using pixels.

Understand, of course, that those pages are merely examples of one way
to structure a form. As far as I'm concerned, tables are viable, as
are several other methods. I personally don't really think any one is
clearly superior to another in all aspects.

I've tried several approaches (simple paragraphs, list, definition
tables, tables). Tables were - considering flexibility, simplicity of
the markup, semantics, and neat formatting - the superior solution most
of the time.

I would agree on formatting consistency, and a slight edge in
flexibility. I would have to disagree, albeit not strenuously, on
simplicity of markup and semantics. I find the list approach to be
less (and more logical) markup, and more straight-forward for a screen
reader or the off-chance that CSS is turned off. Hence my contention
that none is clearly superior in ALL aspects.

Anyway, good discussion!

Kevin Scholl wrote:

On Apr 30, 3:51 pm, Gregor Kofler <use... (AT) gregorkofler (DOT) com> wrote:
Kevin Scholl meinte:

On Apr 29, 7:59 pm, Gregor Kofler <use... (AT) gregorkofler (DOT) com> wrote:
http://beta.ksscholl.com/jquery/formvalidate.html
Breaks horribly, if the labels need two lines (zoom a bit...)
As the developer fo those examples, I wouldn't say "horribly", but
yes, they do break if zoomed beyond a certain point.
Zoom doesn't need to be /that/ severe (must be around 130% of the
original size). Then it breaks, well if not horribly, then "badly" (for
example the "Number" of the "Social Securities Number" label, ends up
with the Zip Code).

I had to zoom five steps in Firefox before there was any wrapping.
Generally speaking, I try to make sure nothing breaks within three
steps of zoom.

I feel the same way. There are several here whose effective font size
is between 4 and 5. So checking at a large zoom to see if it is still
useable, if not fabulous, is not a bad idea. I saw no real problems,
overall it looked good.


<snip>

I would agree on formatting consistency, and a slight edge in
flexibility. I would have to disagree, albeit not strenuously, on
simplicity of markup and semantics. I find the list approach to be
less (and more logical) markup,

I don't see a problem with a list of questions. The styling, is similar
to how you would style a table, setting first td (or in your case label)
properties.

What is interesting is how many things qualify as lists, and how
creative you can be styling them. Lists are a real workhorse.

Jeff

and more straight-forward for a screen

reader or the off-chance that CSS is turned off. Hence my contention
that none is clearly superior in ALL aspects.

Anyway, good discussion!

Mark Hansen wrote:

On 04/30/09 10:12, Kevin Scholl wrote:
On Apr 29, 7:59 pm, Gregor Kofler <use... (AT) gregorkofler (DOT) com> wrote:
shapper meinte:

I found a form that I saw a long time ago:
http://beta.ksscholl.com/jquery/form2col.html
http://beta.ksscholl.com/jquery/formvalidate.html
What do you think?
Breaks horribly, if the labels need two lines (zoom a bit...)
As the developer fo those examples, I wouldn't say "horribly", but

Then I don't think you're seeing what I'm seeing. When the labels
need two lines, they start to interfere with the other rows in
the table, such that you can't tell what the labels are or what
they are associated with.

If it's not "horrible", I don't understand the meaning of that word :-)

Why don't you toss up a screenshot? I don't see "horribly", I see
barely at high zoom.

Jeff

In article <2DZKl.9436$im1.9042 (AT) nlpi061 (DOT) nbdc.sbc.com>,
Jeff <jeff_thies (AT) att (DOT) net> wrote:

What is interesting is how many things qualify as lists, and how
creative you can be styling them. Lists are a real workhorse.

I am glad you have noticed this. A great deal of human linguistic
behaviour can be described in list-like terms and one must be careful
not to go overboard with the ULs otherwise they will lose any *useful*
semantic crispness they might have.

--
dorayme

On 05/02/09 13:54, Jeff wrote:

Mark Hansen wrote:
On 04/30/09 10:12, Kevin Scholl wrote:
On Apr 29, 7:59 pm, Gregor Kofler <use... (AT) gregorkofler (DOT) com> wrote:
shapper meinte:

I found a form that I saw a long time ago:
http://beta.ksscholl.com/jquery/form2col.html
http://beta.ksscholl.com/jquery/formvalidate.html
What do you think?
Breaks horribly, if the labels need two lines (zoom a bit...)
As the developer fo those examples, I wouldn't say "horribly", but

Then I don't think you're seeing what I'm seeing. When the labels
need two lines, they start to interfere with the other rows in
the table, such that you can't tell what the labels are or what
they are associated with.

If it's not "horrible", I don't understand the meaning of that word :-)

Why don't you toss up a screenshot? I don't see "horribly", I see
barely at high zoom.

Jeff

Ok: <http://www.mehconsulting.com/ksscholl.jpg>

Notice how the labels are indented badly and the third word for
the label is actually on the next line?

I think this looks horrible; YMMV

Best Regards,