CSS drop-down menus

In article <2pvkfh.ff1.19.1 (AT) news (DOT) alt.net>, Ed Mullen <ed (AT) edmullen (DOT) net>
wrote:

dorayme wrote:
....
and often an excuse for
poor design of the website in the first place.

That seems a very generalized and out-of-hand comment and unsubstantiated.

I take it you disagree? Otherwise, presumably, my remark would not have
been "very" unsubstantiated and "out of hand" in addition to being not
substantiated there and then in the post.

How do we settle this? Let's cut a bit of slack so we can have a bet.
You have mentioned often how comfortable you are buckeroo-wise, so this
will not be a bet for fun, this will be a potential retirement
opportunity for me, old boy.

Let's say we have an empirical test, I say that often multi level menus
are an excuse for poor design. Let's say that this means for testing
purposes that where we find multi level drop down menus there is a more
than 25% chance that the site is poorly designed - 25% seems reasonable
quantification for my vaguer "often".

So, what we do is get sites with multi-level dropdowns at random and
take a look at how well they are designed.

(Please Ed, let's not have any controls on this experiment and get all
complicated as this would delay my acquisition).

And multi level ones are
often of doubtful value all things considered.

Well, virtually every program on my Windows computers uses them.
So.
My premise is that *most* users/visitors will be familiar with the
concept. Which was, by the way, not a Microsoft innovation, it was an
Apple one.

Oh well then! An Apple one eh! I take all my words back and now say it
is perfectly OK to use them everywhere!

Or, more correctly, Apple stole it from PARC, MS stole it
from Apple ... but, hey, drop-down menus? Of all the multi-millions of
computer users today how many don't use them for hours every day?

Hell, in this Mozilla-based email client I'm using I look up at the menu
bar. I click on File. I get a drop-down menu with 10 options, three of
which lead to another menu.

I say they are of doubtful value in websites and you reply that they are
familiar to folk? Is this quite on the button?

But let me make a remark on dropdowns in OSs anyway. Remember that in
OSs we are talking a very controlled environment. Of course they are
going to work damn well in that environment, the dropdown maker made the
environment itself. In the case of the dropdowns put in by a website
maker he is often more like *hoping* it will work in that big
environment called the world, a world that he did not create and
probably does not fully understand. A world of folk with different
skills, different capacities, different equipment, different software
(including IE).

Just by the way, on an Apple Mac, the menu items have key commands next
to them. Now that is really handy because it allows us to get away from
the pesky things. It has been a long time since I used an Apple menu to
copy or paste or save or save as, I can tell you.

They are to be avoided by anyone new to website making

So, could you suggest an alternative? Or are you just condemning?

So, you don't bother to read my other posts at all? Not even in this
thread? I don't blame you! It is always better to have a cartoon view of
extra terrestrials.

Should we make a Web site that deviates from the most-commonly used menu
structure in the most-common OS? Or attempt to mimic it to give users
something very familiar?

I don't know about you, dorayme, but I enjoy not having to guess what
human interface I need to employ. I prefer it when I see something familiar.

Yes, of course, I am obviously advocating quite wild alternatives! Like
a simple home page that simply lists the general sections of the website
and local menus and breadcrumbs in the inner sections. That is so
unfamiliar eh? Wild 'ol obscure me... I sooooo wish I was a regular good
ol boy earthling...

Keep your shirt on Ed.. It's Sunday and my head hurts from drinking some
disgracefully cheap wine last night. I will never ever forgive the
friend that supplied it, the miserable cheapskate sod... So please don't
fly off the handle at my post that I have carefully crafted to drip with
sarcasm and smarty pants remarks.

--
dorayme

dorayme wrote:

Keep your shirt on Ed.. It's Sunday and my head hurts from drinking some
disgracefully cheap wine last night. I will never ever forgive the
friend that supplied it, the miserable cheapskate sod... So please don't
fly off the handle at my post that I have carefully crafted to drip with
sarcasm and smarty pants remarks.

Of all the things you said this makes the most sense to me. In fact, I
think I shall join in the spirit of the statement and go get another drink.

Other than that? A totally silly discussion.

Look. You design your Web sites navigation your way. I'll design mine
my way. Don't like mine? Don't visit. No problem! It is, for me, all
a hobby. I don't care if anyone views the sites. It's an exercise. An
experiment. Fun.

Now, you and I disagree on the issue of drop-down menus. Fine. Call
Bill Gates. It is a paradigm that is older than some of my
grand-nephews. Sheesh. What the fuck are we arguing about this for?
Cripes.

I asked a question seeking a solution to a technical problems. By the
way, never mind, I don't care anymore.

--
Ed Mullen
http://edmullen.net
Why do you need a driver's license to buy alcohol when you can't drink
and drive?

In article <2q23jl.48h.19.1 (AT) news (DOT) alt.net>, Ed Mullen <ed (AT) edmullen (DOT) net>
wrote:

dorayme wrote:


***


Of all the things you said this makes the most sense to me.

I rather hoped you would have got a benefit from my remarks pointing you
to *one of the reasons* why dropdowns are likely to work well in an OS
rather than cross browser in a website (there are other reasons too. But
because it seems from below that all I do is drive you to drink, I
better not mention them)

Look. You design your Web sites navigation your way. I'll design mine
my way. Don't like mine? Don't visit. No problem! It is, for me, all
a hobby. I don't care if anyone views the sites. It's an exercise. An
experiment. Fun.

I would far more prefer for you to design my websites and I do the

drinking.

Now, you and I disagree on the issue of drop-down menus. Fine. Call
Bill Gates. It is a paradigm that is older than some of my
grand-nephews. Sheesh. What the fuck are we arguing about this for?
Cripes.

I *did* call Bill Gates this morning and we had a blazing row straight
away. I said to him at one heated moment, "Do you have the slightest
idea who I am" and he just completely and utterly blew his top. Such
filthy words and phrases, my phone is still too hot to touch. The last
thing I said to him was something like "Hey Dude, even your IE8 has
bugs..."

I asked a question seeking a solution to a technical problems. By the
way, never mind, I don't care anymore.

No, no, you are only pretending not to care, you can't fool me Ed. The
only technical problem I can see on my Mac browsers at this very moment
is

1. The second level item disappearing disconcertingly when hovered over
while the third level appears. This looks weird to me and also has some
aesthetic problems in that it sometimes slightly mars the white set
color on hover having the effect of marring the text underneath. This
comes from you not giving a background colour on your:

div#menu ul#navigation li span.exlink:hover {...}

--
dorayme

In article <doraymeRidThis-AE342C.14513410052009 (AT) news (DOT) albasani.net>,
dorayme <doraymeRidThis (AT) optusnet (DOT) com.au> wrote:

in that it sometimes slightly mars the white set
color on hover having the effect of marring the text underneath.

That should better read:

in that it sometimes slightly mars the body text underneath with the
white set link hover text.

(To see this, enlarge user text size so your menu drop downs go over you
body text)

--
dorayme

dorayme wrote:

In article <2pvkfh.ff1.19.1 (AT) news (DOT) alt.net>, Ed Mullen <ed (AT) edmullen (DOT) net
wrote:

dorayme wrote:
...
and often an excuse for
poor design of the website in the first place.
That seems a very generalized and out-of-hand comment and unsubstantiated.


I take it you disagree? Otherwise, presumably, my remark would not have
been "very" unsubstantiated and "out of hand" in addition to being not
substantiated there and then in the post.

How do we settle this? Let's cut a bit of slack so we can have a bet.
You have mentioned often how comfortable you are buckeroo-wise, so this
will not be a bet for fun, this will be a potential retirement
opportunity for me, old boy.

Let's say we have an empirical test, I say that often multi level menus
are an excuse for poor design. Let's say that this means for testing
purposes that where we find multi level drop down menus there is a more
than 25% chance that the site is poorly designed - 25% seems reasonable
quantification for my vaguer "often".

Many beginning "web developers" are enamored with bells, whistles and
tricks. Multi level dropdowns fall in that category and you are more apt
to find multi tier websites there than elsewhere.

That's not to say that multi tier sites could not be used in pro
sites, indeed I can see potential uses in technical sites, but largely
single tier takes enough room.

Lets look at a few single tier websites:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/?reload=true

http://www.whitehouse.gov/

http://www.tomshardware.com

Irregardless of what anyone here might consider, all are highly
successful. And, you should note that the rolldown links are available
elswhere. The rolldowns here serve as quick access navigation.

I've spent a bit of time looking for multi tier pro sites and have
come up empty... What have you got?

So, what we do is get sites with multi-level dropdowns at random and
take a look at how well they are designed.

Jeff

In article <7aDNl.29008$yr3.15741 (AT) nlpi068 (DOT) nbdc.sbc.com>,
Jeff <jeff_thies (AT) att (DOT) net> wrote:

dorayme wrote:
In article <2pvkfh.ff1.19.1 (AT) news (DOT) alt.net>, Ed Mullen <ed (AT) edmullen (DOT) net
wrote:

dorayme wrote:
...
and often an excuse for
poor design of the website in the first place.
That seems a very generalized and out-of-hand comment and unsubstantiated.


I take it you disagree? Otherwise, presumably, my remark would not have
been "very" unsubstantiated and "out of hand" in addition to being not
substantiated there and then in the post.

How do we settle this? Let's cut a bit of slack so we can have a bet.
You have mentioned often how comfortable you are buckeroo-wise, so this
will not be a bet for fun, this will be a potential retirement
opportunity for me, old boy.

Let's say we have an empirical test, I say that often multi level menus
are an excuse for poor design. Let's say that this means for testing
purposes that where we find multi level drop down menus there is a more
than 25% chance that the site is poorly designed - 25% seems reasonable
quantification for my vaguer "often".


Many beginning "web developers" are enamored with bells, whistles and
tricks. Multi level dropdowns fall in that category and you are more apt
to find multi tier websites there than elsewhere.

I agree that there *could* be situations that would benefit from multi

level drop down menus. It could be useful for people who *constantly*
visit a site and know what they want. From the home page they can go
*anywhere* (including mars). If author can be sure this will not annoy
and confuse others, fine!
'

That's not to say that multi tier sites could not be used in pro
sites, indeed I can see potential uses in technical sites, but largely
single tier takes enough room.

Lets look at a few single tier websites:

Well, should we? The argument was really more about multilevel. Single
dropdown is even something I have employed (very, very rarely). And, of
course, if I have used something, it must be OK.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/?reload=true

http://www.whitehouse.gov/

http://www.tomshardware.com

As it happens, even single level, if combined with other incompetence,
can be awful:

<http://dorayme.netweaver.com.au/justPics/dropdownwashpost.png>

The Whitehouse one seems more competent but it makes me realise how
greatly I object to these drop downs now! It looks horrible and
confusing because never mind the distracting moving Flash object
underneath, it is too complicated! There are too many items! Who knows
what the briefing room is or means? Sounds intriguing, OK. Then leave it
be and make it a link to a page for this with a local menu (as happens
roughly (except the site mappy breadcrumy thing is last on that
destination - should be better organised). This is partly what I meant
when I said these things are often an excuse not to design well. Thanks
for the example Jeff! <g>

Irregardless of what anyone here might consider, all are highly
successful. And, you should note that the rolldown links are available
elswhere. The rolldowns here serve as quick access navigation.

I've spent a bit of time looking for multi tier pro sites and have
come up empty... What have you got?



So, what we do is get sites with multi-level dropdowns at random and
take a look at how well they are designed.

Jeff

--
dorayme