Can a numbered list start at something > 1?

On 18 Dec, 19:09, Michael Fesser <neti... (AT) gmx (DOT) de> wrote:

.oO(Jon Fairbairn)

David Trimboli <da... (AT) trimboli (DOT) name> writes:

According to the HTML 4.01 Strict specification, the Start
and Value attributes of OL and LI, respectively, have been
deprecated
(http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/lists.html#h-10.2). I
don't know how it can be done legally; I can't find anything
in CSS that covers this either.

look for section
12.4 Automatic counters and numbering
in the css 2.1 document

And the browser support for counters is ... OK, let's forget that.

Mind you, I can't agree with the w3c that the number that lists start at
is a purely presentational matter.

Correct. That's why I use 'ul' and my own numbering if the numbers are
important.

Micha

Hi Michael

How do you use your own numbering?

Dave

..oO(Dave Rado)

On 18 Dec, 19:09, Michael Fesser <neti... (AT) gmx (DOT) de> wrote:
.oO(Jon Fairbairn)

Mind you, I can't agree with the w3c that the number that lists start at
is a purely presentational matter.

Correct. That's why I use 'ul' and my own numbering if the numbers are
important.

How do you use your own numbering?

If I need my own numbering I simply write them in the HTML as normal
text, maybe wrapped into a 'span' to allow for a different styling:

<ul>
<li>1. ...</li>
<li>2. ...
<ul>
<li>2a. ...</li>
<li>2b. ...</li>
</ul>
</li>
</ul>

This becomes especially important when publishing juridical texts and
laws for example - the numbers for the paragraphs, sections etc. _must_
be there and they _must_ be correct. That's why I can't rely on client-
side auto-numbering in this case - it could mean a lot of trouble.

Micha

Wed, 19 Dec 2007 02:49:01 +0100 from Michael Fesser <netizen (AT) gmx (DOT) de>:

If I need my own numbering I simply write them in the HTML as normal
text, maybe wrapped into a 'span' to allow for a different styling:

ul
li>1. ...</li
li>2. ...
ul

But then you've got bullets *and* numbers, which looks dreadful.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com/
HTML 4.01 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/
validator: http://validator.w3.org/
CSS 2.1 spec: http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/
validator: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/
Why We Won't Help You:
http://diveintomark.org/archives/200..._wont_help_you

..oO(Stan Brown)

Wed, 19 Dec 2007 02:49:01 +0100 from Michael Fesser <netizen (AT) gmx (DOT) de>:
If I need my own numbering I simply write them in the HTML as normal
text, maybe wrapped into a 'span' to allow for a different styling:

ul
li>1. ...</li
li>2. ...
ul

But then you've got bullets *and* numbers, which looks dreadful.

The bullets can easily be removed with CSS. How it looks without CSS
doesn't matter as long as the numbers are there.

Micha

On Dec 19, 3:23 am, Dave Rado <dave.r... (AT) dsl (DOT) pipex.com> wrote:

Also, what's wrong with VK's suggestion of using <ol start="10">?

There is nothing wrong in that, "type" and "start" attributes or <ol>
element are properly supported by all browsers from the most old ones
(NN3/IE3 at least) to the most recent ones. Simply some people in this
group do hate these attributes with passion out of theoretical
reasons.

P.S. In my first post "IE up to IE6 has different interpretation of
<li value="123">" should be "IE before IE6 has different
interpretation of <li value="123">"

Dave Rado wrote:

How does one generate numbers server side? And how do you switch off
the bullets in a ul list?

Well, one way would be to display your page with a CGI script, and using
a 2-column borderless table to fabricate your lists. The numbers, in
column 1, are thus determined by your program, and can be anything. I
have a decimal to roman conversion subroutine that I sometimes use in
these circumstances. No doubt php could do something similar.

We're drifting away from stylesheets here, so it won't be long before
someone comes to shout at us.

--
Steve Swift
http://www.swiftys.org.uk/swifty.html
http://www.ringers.org.uk

Michael Fesser <netizen (AT) gmx (DOT) de> writes:

.oO(Jon Fairbairn)

David Trimboli <david (AT) trimboli (DOT) name> writes:

According to the HTML 4.01 Strict specification, the Start
and Value attributes of OL and LI, respectively, have been
deprecated
(http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/lists.html#h-10.2). I
don't know how it can be done legally; I can't find anything
in CSS that covers this either.

look for section
12.4 Automatic counters and numbering
in the css 2.1 document

And the browser support for counters is ...

present in the most recent versions of most real browsers?
Completely absent in the most common browser?

OK, let's forget that.

Yes, I should have mentioned that, perhaps, but I was more
focused on this bit:

Mind you, I can't agree with the w3c that the number that lists start at
is a purely presentational matter.

Correct. That's why I use 'ul' and my own numbering if the numbers are
important.

I have the impression that folk here have often said that
one should always use the strict dtd for new documents,
"because you aren't transitioning from anything". But
aren't we all transitioning from a world where the most
commonly used browser has terrible support for css to one
where, ... where, ... er, I'm not sure where, but it
definitely feels like a state of transition. Or are all the
"transitional" attributes (such as start for ol and value
for li) so flakily supported in old versions of IE that it's
safer to get the results some other way?


--
Jón Fairbairn Jon.Fairbairn (AT) cl (DOT) cam.ac.uk

On 19 Dec, 04:38, Michael Fesser <neti... (AT) gmx (DOT) de> wrote:

.oO(Stan Brown)

Wed, 19 Dec 2007 02:49:01 +0100 from Michael Fesser <neti... (AT) gmx (DOT) de>:
If I need my own numbering I simply write them in the HTML as normal
text, maybe wrapped into a 'span' to allow for a different styling:

ul
li>1. ...</li
li>2. ...
ul

But then you've got bullets *and* numbers, which looks dreadful.

The bullets can easily be removed with CSS. How it looks without CSS
doesn't matter as long as the numbers are there.

Micha

My original question really was asking *how* to remove the bullets
with css, especially if you are also using real bullets in the same
website.

On 19 Dec, 05:26, VK <schools_r... (AT) yahoo (DOT) com> wrote:

On Dec 19, 3:23 am, Dave Rado <dave.r... (AT) dsl (DOT) pipex.com> wrote:

Also, what's wrong with VK's suggestion of using <ol start="10">?

There is nothing wrong in that, "type" and "start" attributes or <ol
element are properly supported by all browsers from the most old ones
(NN3/IE3 at least) to the most recent ones. Simply some people in this
group do hate these attributes with passion out of theoretical
reasons.

P.S. In my first post "IE up to IE6 has different interpretation of
li value="123">" should be "IE before IE6 has different
interpretation of <li value="123">"

Many thanks VK - I'l go with the "Start" atrribute then, for simpler
lists. For more complex ones (like outline lists), I wish someone
would explain how to suppress the bullets in ul tags (without
supressing them when doing proper bullets - two people have said it's
very easy, but no-one has said how to do it, although I've asked
twice. cgi is WAY over my head.

Dave

..oO(Dave Rado)

My original question really was asking *how* to remove the bullets
with css, especially if you are also using real bullets in the same
website.

'list-style-type'
http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/generate.html#list-style

Micha