Two Columns; Should be Simple

Viewed in IE, this page is exactly what I'm trying to do:

http://www.holotech.net/links/

Header, two fixed-width columns, and a footer. However, in NS and Opera,
the second column slides to the left, on top of the first column. I've read
all the tutorials and examples I could find, but everything else ends up
with the second column all the way over on the right side of the window. I
just want it butted up against the first column. I know this should be
simple, but I just can't get it.

I'm really, really trying not to use tables, but if I don't stop banging my
head on the desk soon I'm going to require medical attention.

--
Alan Little
Phorm PHP Form Processor
http://www.phorm.com/

Alan Little <alan (AT) n-o-s-p-a-m-phorm (DOT) com> wrote:

http://www.holotech.net/links/

I'm really, really trying not to use tables

You've go far more important things to fix first:

1) Use semantic markup
2) Code to strict standard
3) Use CSS to replace junk like <br><br>
4) Not mix XHTML with HTML
5) Fix the micro fonts

--
Spartanicus

Carved in mystic runes upon the very living rock, the last words of
Spartanicus <invalid (AT) invalid (DOT) invalid> of
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.stylesheets make plain:

Alan Little <alan (AT) n-o-s-p-a-m-phorm (DOT) com> wrote:

http://www.holotech.net/links/

I'm really, really trying not to use tables

You've go far more important things to fix first:

1) Use semantic markup
2) Code to strict standard
3) Use CSS to replace junk like <br><br
4) Not mix XHTML with HTML
5) Fix the micro fonts

Thank you for your response. I'm afraid I don't understand most of it. I
am a programmer, not a designer. I know basic HTML, and I've learned some
basic CSS, but that's it. I know I can get the layout I want using
tables, but I'm trying to be more enlightened. I just want to put
together a simple template or two to go out with this application.

--
Alan Little
Phorm PHP Form Processor
http://www.phorm.com/

Alan Little <alan (AT) n-o-s-p-a-m-phorm (DOT) com> wrote:

http://www.holotech.net/links/

I'm really, really trying not to use tables

You've go far more important things to fix first:

Thank you for your response. I'm afraid I don't understand most of it.

1) Use semantic markup
Use headers, lists, paragraphs. Divs and spans should only be used to

encapsulate code for styling purposes.

2) Code to strict standard
Use a Strict doctype and code in that spirit.
3) Use CSS to replace junk like <br><br
Self evident.
4) Not mix XHTML with HTML
... /> does not belong in a HTML document.
5) Fix the micro fonts
I can't read the microscopic font. Don't specify Verdana as the body

font, leave the body font size alone, and don't use the px unit for font
sizing. All these issues have been discussed to death on this group.

am a programmer, not a designer. I know basic HTML, and I've learned some
basic CSS, but that's it. I know I can get the layout I want using
tables, but I'm trying to be more enlightened.

Then first fix the above issues, they are far more detrimental to the
quality of the code than using tables for layout could be.

--
Spartanicus

Alan Little wrote:

Thank you for your response. I'm afraid I don't understand most of
it. I am a programmer, not a designer. I know basic HTML, and I've
learned some basic CSS, but that's it. I know I can get the layout
I want using tables, but I'm trying to be more enlightened. I just
want to put together a simple template or two to go out with this
application.

Perhaps a short study of this rather nice two-column template will help.
http://www.benmeadowcroft.com/webdev...ft-column.html

--
-bts
-This space intentionally left blank.

Carved in mystic runes upon the very living rock, the last words of
Spartanicus of comp.infosystems.www.authoring.stylesheets make plain:

Alan Little <alan (AT) n-o-s-p-a-m-phorm (DOT) com> wrote:

http://www.holotech.net/links/

I'm really, really trying not to use tables

You've go far more important things to fix first:

Thank you for your response. I'm afraid I don't understand most of it.

1) Use semantic markup
Use headers, lists, paragraphs. Divs and spans should only be used to
encapsulate code for styling purposes.
2) Code to strict standard
Use a Strict doctype and code in that spirit.
3) Use CSS to replace junk like <br><br
Self evident.
4) Not mix XHTML with HTML
... /> does not belong in a HTML document.
5) Fix the micro fonts
I can't read the microscopic font. Don't specify Verdana as the body
font, leave the body font size alone, and don't use the px unit for
font sizing. All these issues have been discussed to death on this
group.

am a programmer, not a designer. I know basic HTML, and I've learned
some basic CSS, but that's it. I know I can get the layout I want
using tables, but I'm trying to be more enlightened.

Then first fix the above issues, they are far more detrimental to the
quality of the code than using tables for layout could be.

OK, I took out the body font size specification and got rid of the
verdana. I got rid of all the double <BR>s and most of the single ones.
Hopefully the font size is readable now; it was always OK on my screen,
so I can't tell.

I'm afraid the rest is beyond my scope at the moment. I really do
understand your frustration with my less-than-perfect code. I've seen
programming code that made my skin crawl. But at the same time, I've
helped many a novice programmer get that klunky, awkward code just to
work, because I know everyone has to start somewhere.

I'm self-employed as a freelance programmer. I'm interested in learning
design and layout, but I can only afford to do it as time permits. I go
to csszengarden.com sometimes and just look through all the amazing
designs. But that's not the focus of my business at the moment, so all I
can do is get it by bits and pieces.

For now, if I can just get a simple template that I can ship with this
application, I'll be happy. The template is not going to be used in most
cases anyway, beyond initial setup. The application is designed to be
integrated into other site designs.

Do you have any insight into my layout problem?

--
Alan Little
Phorm PHP Form Processor
http://www.phorm.com/

Carved in mystic runes upon the very living rock, the last words of
Beauregard T. Shagnasty of comp.infosystems.www.authoring.stylesheets
make plain:

Alan Little wrote:
Thank you for your response. I'm afraid I don't understand most of
it. I am a programmer, not a designer. I know basic HTML, and I've
learned some basic CSS, but that's it. I know I can get the layout
I want using tables, but I'm trying to be more enlightened. I just
want to put together a simple template or two to go out with this
application.

Perhaps a short study of this rather nice two-column template will
help.
http://www.benmeadowcroft.com/webdev...ft-column.html

Thanks. I forgot to mention that that's the other thing I tried, absolute
positioning. But with that I couldn't figure out how to have my footer.

I once saw a layout like what I'm trying to do, but now I can't find it
again.

--
Alan Little
Phorm PHP Form Processor
http://www.phorm.com/

Alan Little <alan (AT) n-o-s-p-a-m-phorm (DOT) com> wrote:

Then first fix the above issues, they are far more detrimental to the
quality of the code than using tables for layout could be.

OK, I took out the body font size specification and got rid of the
verdana. I got rid of all the double <BR>s and most of the single ones.
Hopefully the font size is readable now; it was always OK on my screen,
so I can't tell.

I'm afraid the rest is beyond my scope at the moment. I really do
understand your frustration with my less-than-perfect code. I've seen
programming code that made my skin crawl. But at the same time, I've
helped many a novice programmer get that klunky, awkward code just to
work, because I know everyone has to start somewhere.

I'm self-employed as a freelance programmer. I'm interested in learning
design and layout, but I can only afford to do it as time permits. I go
to csszengarden.com sometimes and just look through all the amazing
designs. But that's not the focus of my business at the moment, so all I
can do is get it by bits and pieces.

The points I raised have nothing to do with "design", they relate to
more important and fundamental issues such as lack of structure, poor
usability and accessibility.

Your admiration for csszengarden may be related to your current poor
coding, the code used by csszengarden is an text book example of how
*not* to code normal webpages.

For now, if I can just get a simple template that I can ship with this
application, I'll be happy. The template is not going to be used in most
cases anyway, beyond initial setup. The application is designed to be
integrated into other site designs.

Do you have any insight into my layout problem?

The problem lies with your aim of not using tables for layout,. Your CSS
skills are not yet sufficient to tackle this thorny task. Not using HTML
tables for layout can be compared to the proverbial cherry on top of the
cake, it adds little to the overall quality of the product. If not
handled by someone who has a good understanding of web layouts combined
with advanced CSS skills the end result is often worse compared to when
the design had used an HTML table for layout.

--
Spartanicus

Spartanicus wrote:

Use headers, lists, paragraphs.

Yes.

Divs and spans should only be used to
encapsulate code for styling purposes.

No, not only. They are for grouping content.
--
Johannes Koch
In te domine speravi; non confundar in aeternum.
(Te Deum, 4th cent.)

Johannes Koch <koch (AT) w3development (DOT) de> wrote:

Divs and spans should only be used to
encapsulate code for styling purposes.

No, not only. They are for grouping content.

Nope. No UA should do anything non stylistic with divs and spans, if it
does it's badly broken.

--
Spartanicus