Re: <body style=background-color:#FED501; rightmargin="0">

#11

Knut Krueger wrote:

Quote:

Beauregard T. Shagnasty schrieb:

Tell those other useres how to adjust their own browsers?

Please do not missunderstand me.
I try speak against intros, flashplayer fixed layout, but the "wrong"
layout is dominating the feeling of the users.

Well a website is about communication, and if the user cannot read the
content... well?

Yes, the user usually (except IE users with fonts set in PXs) can adjust
the font size, but I will give an analogy of why "body != 100%" is bad.

When you watch TV you set the volume to a level that is comfortable for
*your* hearing. This may not be the same for everyone. It depending on
preference and capabilities. Now here in the US, advertisers have a
nasty habit of over compressing the audio on their commercials resulting
a *dramatic* increase in overall volume level for the commercial in
contrasted to the regular programs. Either you watch you program and
then get blasted by the commercials, or turn it down for the commercials
and then need closed captions to view the program! Yes you can keep
adjusting the volume now with the power of the remote, which I do, but
it is a pain! Rude ain't it?

Well, that is what it like for browsers of the Internet when they have
to adjust their text size up and down constantly (if they are savvy
enough to realize that they can) as they go from site to site. But what
usually happens when someone stumbles upon your site with microtext is
they hit the back button.

--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com

#12

Beauregard T. Shagnasty wrote:

Quote:

quote
Creating Web Pages II

Are you using HTML to its fullest potential? In this practical,
project-oriented course, you'll discover how you can use tables to
create fresh, innovative, and unconventional arrangements of text,
colors and graphics. You'll become skilled at incorporating audio into
...<snip

Quote:

There are other courses with equally perplexing descriptions.

But at least they have "modernized" somewhat. A couple of years ago, the
basic web courses had a requirement that the student own a copy of
FrontPage.

OOOOOOO! Table layouts! Cutting edge!

--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com

#13

Beauregard T. Shagnasty schrieb:

Quote:

Sorry, that sentence does not translate well. Are you saying that using
*my* default font size is wrong?

No not your default font size.
The major problem is that websites are more a showroom for a
presentation of a company than a medium to present information.

And the sites are looking cool (Neredbojias thank you for the words)
with small fontsize and they look antiquated with default size.

The commercial aspect to present the research or the company is as
important as the possibility to read the words.
But the first view of the user is the layout means the site is a "cool
site" or not.

I changed one site p,ul,ol,li,div,td,th,address,blockquote from 92% back
to 100% and one of the users which were familiar with the smaller fonts
wrote me an email why I am using so big fonts now - terrible please
change it ...
I changed it back to 92%

But the example of Cornell and many others are using fonts down to 75%

But that`s OT
Maybe the user will force the webdesigner to lower the default fontsize
in the future

Regards Knut

#14

Knut Krueger wrote:

Quote:

The problem is that you are outside of the "society" if you are using
the 100% font. In the mind of lto of users your homepage looks outmoded.

Thats whate customers and users are telling you.

*Some* clients may say that, but I find it much less likely that *users*
do. I've found that many users merely tolerate the small type they find
on most web sites and are unaware they can change their browser setting
to combat it. Once I show them how, it's like a whole new web to them.

Quote:

The question is what are you doing against those arguments..

Part of your role as a web designer is to educate the client why they
don't really want what they think they do.

--
Berg

#15

Neredbojias wrote:

Quote:

On 10 Mar 2008, Jonathan N. Little wrote:

When you watch TV you set the volume to a level that is comfortable
for *your* hearing. This may not be the same for everyone. It
depending on preference and capabilities. Now here in the US,
advertisers have a nasty habit of over compressing the audio on their
commercials resulting
a *dramatic* increase in overall volume level for the commercial in
contrasted to the regular programs. Either you watch you program and
then get blasted by the commercials, or turn it down for the
commercials and then need closed captions to view the program! Yes you
can keep adjusting the volume now with the power of the remote, which
I do, but it is a pain! Rude ain't it?

Great analogy and explanation. For my own tuppence, I can't stand
commercials, anyway, and quit watching network tv at all sometime in the
'80s. Now what do you think I do when I hit a web site with too small a
font size?

Don't watch much myself, abhor "reality" tv and have been "Law &
Order"ed to death so mostly watch movies or PBS, I do watch the newtork
news before the News Hour to see what the public slant is...so I avoid
most commercials.

Quote:

Well, that is what it like for browsers of the Internet when they have
to adjust their text size up and down constantly (if they are savvy
enough to realize that they can) as they go from site to site. But
what usually happens when someone stumbles upon your site with
microtext is they hit the back button.

A large part of the problem as Mr. Krueger explains it is the staid
design approach of many so-called "cool" websites. Few designers are
actually capable of designing a site effectively with 100% font size so
we have what we have today. It's quite logical.

It is an approach problem. Some people cannot think "out of the box", in
this case fixed-dimensioned box.

--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com

#16

In article <fr39m2$pp6$00$1 (AT) news (DOT) t-online.com>,
Knut Krueger <knut.krueger (AT) usa (DOT) com> wrote:

Quote:

Using the default fonsize makes the pages "old fashioned" - not only my
words - but the words of other useres

What the solution for that in your opinion.

I understand your concerns 100%. I have come across it with
clients and users. There is no "solution" in the sense of a magic
bullet. Complex problems require complex solutions.

There are a number of quite difficult issues involved and you
cannot hope to resolve them by your own action. The problem is a
social one that has developed over time because of practices that
were unfortunate to begin with and because of general ignorance
on the part of website viewers of the controls on their own
browsers. There is nothing much you can do to turn this big ship
around. You are too small (as are we all, individually).

What you have to be concerned with is what you will set your font
sizes at. If you make a principled stand and set 100% for body
text and no less generally than .85 for some other important
things like navigation, you will sleep easy knowing you have not
contributed to the madness of the arms race.

Arms race? It works like this. Some authors make font-sizes
small. They make attractive enough web-sites. Other do the same.
They all have plenty to say and do and it all fits in the page
easier. It was a particularly young people's game the www.
Whatever. A trend is established and the browser manufacturers'
default for the browser and/or the user or the user's agents
settings are for web-sites as they are (not as they should be
according to the 'best practice' recommendations of such groups
as here on alt.html). So when a best practice site come along,
quite the minority it would seem, it looks "too big" to eyes
otherwise accustomed.

The people in this newsgroup will not tend to increase their
font-sizes at the options or preferences level of their browser
for a number of reasons. One reason is they are loathe to bow
down to a stupid mindless trend and would prefer to use their
'tactical' controls (like 'command +' or 'alt +') as and when
they have trouble reading sites with small fonts (like e.g.. A
List Apart!).

Another big reason is that we are website makers. We make
web-sites and want to see our efforts at a 'normal for us'
comfortable scale. That is 100%. That is rationality.

Rationality? Rational, because if every author did this and every
user set their browser's 'strategic' font-sizes (in Option or
Preference panels), everyone would see the text at a size that
was comfortable for them.

But this 'rational' world is not the world we live in and so you
are faced with some difficult personal choices. Some website
makers go down the path of following (and thereby confirming) the
bad trend but *perhaps/probably* keeping *most* people happy.
Leaving the less well sighted to adjust their browsers.

It is rational for the user to adjust their browsers so that the
majority of the sites they look at seem good and comfortable for
them. These users will find the 100% author's efforts 'too big'
and have to use their 'tactical' mouse or keyboard controls on
these sites (to make the text smaller!)

There is another very big factor and that is design. While 100%
text might look too big in one design, it will not be so in
another design. So look to your design to lessen the problem you
face. make it seem more natural. I will not go into this further
here as I am not confident anyone is still reading! <g>

The other thing you can do that is not as good as above, is to
put in a prominent control: "Text too small? Click this" where
the this is a text enlarging icon. It is a practice some people
use. You can then go for the 92% (you mention later in the
thread) and give the inexperienced user an easy way to go up.

--
dorayme

#17

Neredbojias <example (AT) example (DOT) com> wrote:

Quote:

On 10 Mar 2008, Jonathan N. Little wrote:

Neredbojias wrote:
Great analogy and explanation. For my own tuppence, I can't stand
commercials, anyway, and quit watching network tv at all sometime in
the '80s.
It is safe to go back in the water! You need MythTV

<http://www.mythtv.org/> to record the program then remove the
advertisements before you view it. It has the slight disadvantage that
you may spend so much time getting MythTV working to your satisfaction
that you may not have time to watch any television.

Quote:

Yeah, I like Law & Order although I didn't watch it much for a long time
until the episodes came out on dvd. I've got 3 season's-worth and wish
they'd issue some of the later seasons _individually_; at least if they
_are_ available they seem hard to find.
With MythTV you can "time shift" DVDs too. Rent the episodes you want

and MythTV will keep them on your hard drive until you feel like
watching them.

#18

David Segall wrote:

Quote:

It is safe to go back in the water! You need MythTV

<snip>

Quote:

With MythTV you can "time shift" DVDs too. Rent the episodes you want
and MythTV will keep them on your hard drive until you feel like
watching them.

Ah...but this is downloaded programming right? In 3rd-world America, no
cable, no broadband. I broke down and got NetFlix so I could watch
something better than what was offered at the video store for local
consumption.

--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com

#19

"Jonathan N. Little" <lws4art (AT) central (DOT) net> wrote:

Quote:

David Segall wrote:

It is safe to go back in the water! You need MythTV

snip

With MythTV you can "time shift" DVDs too. Rent the episodes you want
and MythTV will keep them on your hard drive until you feel like
watching them.

Ah...but this is downloaded programming right? In 3rd-world America, no
cable, no broadband. I broke down and got NetFlix so I could watch
something better than what was offered at the video store for local
consumption.
The source of the DVD is irrelevant. If you borrow it from NetFlix or

you next door neighbour you can use MythTV to copy it to your hard
drive and then return the DVD. You choose when you feel like watching
it. If you are on a NetFlix "n DVD at a time unlimited" plan the
number of DVDs you can have is limited only by the turn around time of
the DVDs and the amount of hard disk storage you have. MythTV has a
NetFlix module but I don't know what it does because I'm in Australia.

I should add that if all you want to do is save DVDs then there are
several easier ways than installing MythTV.

#20

David Segall wrote:

Quote:

Neredbojias <example (AT) example (DOT) com> wrote:

On 10 Mar 2008, Jonathan N. Little wrote:

Neredbojias wrote:
Great analogy and explanation. For my own tuppence, I can't stand
commercials, anyway, and quit watching network tv at all sometime in
the '80s.
It is safe to go back in the water! You need MythTV
http://www.mythtv.org/> to record the program then remove the
advertisements before you view it. It has the slight disadvantage that
you may spend so much time getting MythTV working to your satisfaction
that you may not have time to watch any television.
Yeah, I like Law & Order although I didn't watch it much for a long time
until the episodes came out on dvd. I've got 3 season's-worth and wish
they'd issue some of the later seasons _individually_; at least if they
_are_ available they seem hard to find.
With MythTV you can "time shift" DVDs too. Rent the episodes you want
and MythTV will keep them on your hard drive until you feel like
watching them.

I can't imagine diving into that when Tivo and other DVR products are
available. TV isn't a computer application, it's a consumer
entertainment product. I know, YMMV and all that. And, sure, if it
rocks your boat, great. I just don't see it. I'll stick with my Tivos.

--
Ed Mullen
http://edmullen.net
Harmony is pure love, for love is a concerto. - Lope de Vega