Books just don't cut it

Ste wrote:

Is ther anybody who can help me? Or atleast point me to an FAQ? I'm really
new to programming in HTML

HTML is a data format. It is used for structuring information. You can't
program in it.

and have so far just been following books and
building up a web page bit by bit. I have no fancy editor, so I'm just
doing it by in notepad and saving as a HTML file.

Text editor: good.
Notepad: bad

Try something with syntax highlighting. JEdit <http://www.jedit.org> is a
good choice, its free and available on multiple platforms. It also does tag
completion for you.

The problem is that the
books just don't explain enough.

http://w3.org/TR/html4/ is the specification, its quite detailed.

My main problem is with automation. I know from other websites that I can
use html to have a form collect data and automatically update an
information file that will then automatically change information on a
webpage, but I haven't a clue how to go about it. The books suggest
something about scripts, but what they are I don't know

You have present a form to the user using HTML, you need something else to
accept that data and do something with it.

Also, I know that I can get a form to e-mail me it's contents upon a user
clicking a 'submit' button but for the life of me can't work out how. I've
set up a form but I think I'm supposed to have some particular script from
my ISP? I don't even have a website yet, I'm just trying to learn the
basics by writing and displaying in Internet Explorer and testing. But I'm
having no luck.

Script - perhaps. You need a server side program of some description, it
will probably be a script, but you can use compiled binaries as well.

Can anyone offer advice? I've looked at website and searched places like
google but I'm afraid the mass of information is just too much for a
beginner, it's like a needle in a hay stack.

http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/forms/ is a good place to get started.

--
David Dorward <http://blog.dorward.me.uk/> <http://dorward.me.uk/>

"Ste" <news (AT) homecomptr (DOT) freeserve.co.uk> wrote

Is ther anybody who can help me? Or atleast point me to an FAQ? I'm really
new to programming in HTML and have so far just been following books and
building up a web page bit by bit. I have no fancy editor, so I'm just
doing
it by in notepad and saving as a HTML file. The problem is that the books
just don't explain enough.

My main problem is with automation. I know from other websites that I can
use html to have a form collect data and automatically update an
information
file that will then automatically change information on a webpage, but I
haven't a clue how to go about it. The books suggest something about
scripts, but what they are I don't know

There isn't any one book that explains it all, simply because what you've
brought up in your posting actually covers quite abit of ground

What you are going over now is HTML... and how to build "static" websites.
These are sites that don't change and just present the information in the
form of web pages.

HTML encompasses the basic presentation of a website... how it is going to
be layed out and displayed to the user

Some examples of HTML markup would be: <p><br><table border=1 cellpadding=1
cellspacing=5>

From there the next best step is CSS (Cascading Style Sheets) this will give
you more control over your HTML so you can define the layout and display of
your web page with more control.

In its most basic form, an example of CSS would be something like:
<div style='font-family:arial;font-size:100px;'>BIG TEXT</div>

Once you have a good working knowledge of HTML and CSS the next step would
then be to look into "Server Side Scripting". It is difficult to explain
Server Side Scripting in one or two lines since it can encompass so much,
but in a nutshell: Server Side Scripting is a webpage written in a
programming language that is executed on a webserver and then results (if
there are any) are presented to the user. This can be as simple as loading
a file within another, printing the time on the page, reading information
from a database, returning search results, etc.

There are quite a few different choices as far as Server Side Scripting
languages go, an example in ASP (Active Server Pages) would be:

<%
for x = 1 to 10
response.write "<br>Item Number " & x
next
%>

Then once you have the hang of Server Side Scripting (with whichever
language(s) you choose to learn) the next step would be to delve into SQL.
SQL is a database language that differs from database to database but for
the most part has the same core structure and commands. SQL commands are
combined with Server Side Scripting to read/edit/update/delete database
data.

An example of SQL would look like:
(SELECT i.name FROM inventory i LEFT JOIN (SELECT show, itemID, storeID FROM
prices WHERE storeID=1) p ON i.itemID=p.itemID WHERE (i.itemType=1) AND
(i.canusa='usa') AND ((p.show IS NULL) OR (p.show='y'))) UNION (SELECT name
FROM mopsop WHERE storeID=1 AND itemType=1) ORDER BY name


In your example of being able to update and change a page with a form would
use all of the above:
- You would use HTML and CSS to design the page with the form you are
entering the data on
- You would use Server Side Scripting and SQL to process the form data and
write it to a database
- You would use HTML, CSS, Server Side Scripting and SQL to build the page
the user sees: you would use the scripting and SQL to pull the information
from the database and then the HTML and CSS to render it into the web page
the user sees.

This was probably a long and overly complex reply to your question, but
hopefully it provides some insight into what you need to do next to advance
to the next level.

Clint

Augustus wrote:

HTML encompasses the basic presentation of a website... how it is going to
be layed out and displayed to the user

Obsolete parts of HTML encompass the basic presentation of a website. The
rest (i.e. the stuff still in modern HTML) defines the structure of a page.

Some examples of HTML markup would be: <p><br><table border=1
cellpadding=1 cellspacing=5

Very bad markup.

A paragraph containing nothing except a line break, followed by a table
(because a table can not exist inside a paragraph, the paragraph is
implicitly ended)

In its most basic form, an example of CSS would be something like:
div style='font-family:arial;font-size:100px;'>BIG TEXT</div

Except that one should never define font sizes using pixels.

There are quite a few different choices as far as Server Side Scripting
languages go, an example in ASP (Active Server Pages) would be:

%
for x = 1 to 10
response.write "<br>Item Number " & x
next
%

Which is ASP containing VBScript, since ASP is not a server side scripting
language but a means to embed a number of different languages inside a
webpage (the embedded code is executed on the server).

An example of SQL would look like:
(SELECT i.name FROM inventory i LEFT JOIN (SELECT show, itemID, storeID
FROM prices WHERE storeID=1) p ON i.itemID=p.itemID WHERE (i.itemType=1)
AND (i.canusa='usa') AND ((p.show IS NULL) OR (p.show='y'))) UNION (SELECT
name FROM mopsop WHERE storeID=1 AND itemType=1) ORDER BY name

A rather scary example.

SELECT * from members WHERE username="johnsmith"

is a better place to start


--
David Dorward <http://blog.dorward.me.uk/> <http://dorward.me.uk/>

Is ther anybody who can help me? Or atleast point me to an FAQ? I'm really
new to programming in HTML and have so far just been following books and
building up a web page bit by bit. I have no fancy editor, so I'm just doing
it by in notepad and saving as a HTML file. The problem is that the books
just don't explain enough.

My main problem is with automation. I know from other websites that I can
use html to have a form collect data and automatically update an information
file that will then automatically change information on a webpage, but I
haven't a clue how to go about it. The books suggest something about
scripts, but what they are I don't know

Also, I know that I can get a form to e-mail me it's contents upon a user
clicking a 'submit' button but for the life of me can't work out how. I've
set up a form but I think I'm supposed to have some particular script from
my ISP? I don't even have a website yet, I'm just trying to learn the basics
by writing and displaying in Internet Explorer and testing. But I'm having
no luck.

Can anyone offer advice? I've looked at website and searched places like
google but I'm afraid the mass of information is just too much for a
beginner, it's like a needle in a hay stack.

Ste

A long one, but none the less quite informative.

Thanks to you all for replying so quickly. I reckon the common consensus is
right-I should get happy with static pages. I do have plans to have a form
filled out that will change the content of something else on the page in
real time but I'm not gonna try that. I ain't gonna be running before I'm
walking,

ste



"Augustus" <Imperial.Palace (AT) Rome (DOT) com> wrote

"Ste" <news (AT) homecomptr (DOT) freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message
news:c56kpg$5fj$1 (AT) newsg2 (DOT) svr.pol.co.uk...
Is ther anybody who can help me? Or atleast point me to an FAQ? I'm
really
new to programming in HTML and have so far just been following books and
building up a web page bit by bit. I have no fancy editor, so I'm just
doing
it by in notepad and saving as a HTML file. The problem is that the
books
just don't explain enough.

My main problem is with automation. I know from other websites that I
can
use html to have a form collect data and automatically update an
information
file that will then automatically change information on a webpage, but I
haven't a clue how to go about it. The books suggest something about
scripts, but what they are I don't know

There isn't any one book that explains it all, simply because what you've
brought up in your posting actually covers quite abit of ground

What you are going over now is HTML... and how to build "static" websites.
These are sites that don't change and just present the information in the
form of web pages.

HTML encompasses the basic presentation of a website... how it is going to
be layed out and displayed to the user

Some examples of HTML markup would be: <p><br><table border=1
cellpadding=1
cellspacing=5

From there the next best step is CSS (Cascading Style Sheets) this will
give
you more control over your HTML so you can define the layout and display
of
your web page with more control.

In its most basic form, an example of CSS would be something like:
div style='font-family:arial;font-size:100px;'>BIG TEXT</div

Once you have a good working knowledge of HTML and CSS the next step would
then be to look into "Server Side Scripting". It is difficult to explain
Server Side Scripting in one or two lines since it can encompass so much,
but in a nutshell: Server Side Scripting is a webpage written in a
programming language that is executed on a webserver and then results (if
there are any) are presented to the user. This can be as simple as
loading
a file within another, printing the time on the page, reading information
from a database, returning search results, etc.

There are quite a few different choices as far as Server Side Scripting
languages go, an example in ASP (Active Server Pages) would be:

%
for x = 1 to 10
response.write "<br>Item Number " & x
next
%

Then once you have the hang of Server Side Scripting (with whichever
language(s) you choose to learn) the next step would be to delve into SQL.
SQL is a database language that differs from database to database but for
the most part has the same core structure and commands. SQL commands are
combined with Server Side Scripting to read/edit/update/delete database
data.

An example of SQL would look like:
(SELECT i.name FROM inventory i LEFT JOIN (SELECT show, itemID, storeID
FROM
prices WHERE storeID=1) p ON i.itemID=p.itemID WHERE (i.itemType=1) AND
(i.canusa='usa') AND ((p.show IS NULL) OR (p.show='y'))) UNION (SELECT
name
FROM mopsop WHERE storeID=1 AND itemType=1) ORDER BY name


In your example of being able to update and change a page with a form
would
use all of the above:
- You would use HTML and CSS to design the page with the form you are
entering the data on
- You would use Server Side Scripting and SQL to process the form data and
write it to a database
- You would use HTML, CSS, Server Side Scripting and SQL to build the page
the user sees: you would use the scripting and SQL to pull the
information
from the database and then the HTML and CSS to render it into the web page
the user sees.

This was probably a long and overly complex reply to your question, but
hopefully it provides some insight into what you need to do next to
advance
to the next level.

Clint

brucie wrote:

icky poo. notepad doesn't even have syntax highlighting. heres some free
editors that do:
[...]
dirt&stick: http://bruciesusenetshit.info/editor/

Dirt&Stick has syntax highlighting now? What version did you add that in?
I really must upgrade...

--
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
Contact Me - http://www.goddamn.co.uk/tobyink/?page=132

Toby A Inkster wrote:

brucie wrote:
dirt&stick: http://bruciesusenetshit.info/editor/

Dirt&Stick has syntax highlighting now? What version did you add that
in? I really must upgrade...

I refuse to use dirt&stick - it has a wind and rain vulnerability that
occasionally wipes your data, and the suggested tent workaround isn't
practical in many commercial environments (
--
Andrew Urquhart
- Contact: www.andrewu.co.uk/contact/
- Employ me: Front/middle tier ASP developer with WAI & web standards

brucie wrote:

there is also the completely portable "lunch box" version

But that has very limited memory -- not really suitable for large sites.

--
Toby A Inkster BSc (Hons) ARCS
Contact Me - http://www.goddamn.co.uk/tobyink/?page=132

brucie <shit (AT) bruciesusenetshit (DOT) info> wrote in news:c5796q$2o3kd0$1@ID-
117621.news.uni-berlin.de:

heres some free editors that do:

jedit: http://www.jedit.org/
nedit: http://www.nedit.org/
netpadd: http://www.netpadd.com/
araneae: http://www.araneae.com/
1st page: http://www.evrsoft.com/
crimson: http://crimsoneditor.com/
ezpad: http://www.mmedia.is/ezpad/
acehtml: http://freeware.acehtml.com/
notetab light: http://www.notetab.com/
tswebeditor: http://tswebeditor.net.tc/
html-kit: http://www.chami.com/html-kit/
pspad: http://www.pspad.com/index_en.html
websmill: http://www.xtreeme.com/websmill/
metapad: http://www.liquidninja.com/metapad/
quanta (linux): http://quanta.sourceforge.net/
dirt&stick: http://bruciesusenetshit.info/editor/
notespad: http://www.newbie.net/NotesPad/index.html
grey matter pro: http://www.pagetutor.com/misc/grey.html
editpad lite: http://www.editpadlite.com/editpadlite.html
stones webwrite: http://www.webwriter.dk/english/index.htm
matizha sublime: http://www.matizha.com/en/products/sublime/

Does anyone of them have support for ISO 8859-2 and UTF-8 encoding?

--
altamir

Ste <news:c56kpg$5fj$1 (AT) newsg2 (DOT) svr.pol.co.uk>:

Is ther anybody who can help me? Or atleast point me to an
FAQ?

I recommend Note Tab, notetab.com, but notepad.exe is just fine
for learning the basics. No distractions.

As for learning the basics you may want to consider
pagetutor.com. His tutorials were easy to follow and would
introduce you to form processing and JavaScript. I can't recall
if he added CSS or not.

There certainly is a mass of info out there. You can check the
links in my signature for sites I recommend.

As you seemed to have figured out, you should get a handle on
static HTML pages. Then grasping enough of a programming language
to insert free JavaScript or CGI scripts won't be too
intimidating. No need to learn all the details if you don't want
to.

--
Rob - http://rock13.com/
Web Stuff: http://rock13.com/webhelp/